Episode 16: Tess Gard
FASHION DESIGN - FASHION LINE - MANUFACTURING - STUDENT SERVICES - BURNOUT - BOOTCAMP - SOFTWARE ENGINEERING
Tess has lead a life with many different paths - from fashion designer of her own clothing line to a musician to pivoting into tech as a software engineer.
The conversation had everything from what it takes to have your own fashion line (!), escaping perfectionism, understanding your mental health, setting appropriate expectations, knowing when to quit and the untold truths about working in consulting.
This short blurb really doesn’t do it her journey justice - listen/watch/read now!
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Below is the episode transcript. This is automated through Azure Cognitive Speech Services. There is more training and customisation work coming for improved accuracy.
In the meantime please bare with any missing words/grammar/typos - the AI is learning!
Transcript
Akanksha
Welcome. Everyone to another episode of paths uncovered. It's a podcast where we get to go through on traditional pathways into technology and careers within it as. If you're in the mood. For career changing into technology, I think you've come to the right place, especially with today's guest. I've got an amazing guest on today ads. With really, really cool career. As we've got Tess Gard on today.
Tess
Hello. My name is Tess. I'm a Melbourne based software engineer, slightly untraditional path of having had a fashion degree and somehow. Writing code for living now.
Akanksha
I love it so much and I think. I've actually got a guest. In the soon future, I think we're just looking into dates and stuff. Who's gone the other way, like literally exact opposite of yourself where she had a proper like tech career and has started at home fashion binder everything while in the decorated. I'm like that's. The. Reverse of traditional. Path that I'm into it, but I'm so excited. To hear how everything could have changed. Around. So just for context. People. Me and test met last. Week Thursday. I have seen your around some community events. Like in general concern, yeah and begin working, chatting and we're out when WWC like someone, anyone here. I'm sure there's many of the women here is I've had on traditional pathways into technology and I'm like please let me know so I can start hunting people down help and Tess is lovely and she's like Yep, it's me.
Tess
I feel like I just like fulfilled the brief.
Akanksha
At that point, I'm traditional. Present and I. Was so excited I think. Like a few other people reset too, so I'm like really, really excited for the next. Like few episodes that we've got lined up. But without straight in I take us back to kind of high school college song with what was. Happening I mean. You did, you just said you did? A degree in fashion, so where did that come from? How did you end up there?
Tess
Always was kind of airing on the side of like creative pathways. Uhm? Yeah, I studied fashion design A taste before I decided to go get into a unique degree. And yeah, I took it really seriously. I was. All about. You know looking the pot. Red lipstick on every day and. I was a bit of a. Design nerd, though I have to say that I wasn't sick quite often. Uhm, kind of the fashion enus about it. I really loved. I love pattern. Making and I. Love Actually making clothes and sometimes I think that maybe it does make sense 'cause it is. Engineering in a way like. There are a lot of. Kind of problem solving aspects for making clothes that fit the body because of runs got such different bodies that we are really loved that part of. It and I. Just yeah, I like building things from nothing, so being able to, yeah, make clothes on this piece of fabric and then actually at university I took it further. I was making fabrics I was weaving. In this thing. So yeah, it was really there. Two is. Definitely about making something out of nothing. And yeah, I really. Loved it and I went on to having my own business. For a few years and.
Akanksha
Yeah. God. I. Think I mean. When you talk about like the building something other than I think I. Mean the amount. Of like YouTube. Spirals I've gotten to where they're like. This is how I made my own. Life pair of. Pants and I'm like. I can do this. Surely? And then like looking like no 100% cannot do this right now. So it's like. On I can't think of the word now. Underserved know definitely the word, but I guess it's not under appreciated. That's what. It's. Like what's the term? But yeah, you put under. Appreciated thing to be able. To state like, do you build? Upon your light bills. Do you still create? A lot of your clothes, sorry. I think it's. Just a random question for.
Tess
Like how I do, I used to actually make my dog a lot. More clothes that I make myself, 'cause he's a wizard and he likes, you know having turtlenecks in winter. So I do like the social but mostly for him not so much for me. I mean, I think it's a great. Use of it like let's be real. It's come out very handy. And. Also, we would love to see the photos. Of him dressed. Up I mean that would make me very happy. Russian sensors. So you would do in the taste degree. What was next? He said you kind of. Started a business out of odd. Yes, after I finished my degree I. I had started the business already, so I was actually manufacturing a womenswear label I was manufacturing in India and then I was wholesaling to a few stores between Sunshine Coast, Brisbane and Melbourne so it was all about, yeah, selling the sample range, like going and meeting these store owners and selling my collection. And then there was put in an order and I go into production for that collection. UM, and then yes supply the goods through. Four months later, and. Stop the cycle again so that was kind of that feels like another lifetime ago. To be honest but.
Akanksha
That is. Amazing, I mean. Like you had this idea and I can just kind of started building essentially like you knew you liked patterns and like creating things. How did you actually start? Kind of decide to do the. Whole like I'm going to make a. Business out of. This and I'm going to go sell these things.
Tess
Yeah, I think I definitely had it like an entrepreneur mind when I was younger and in my early 20s. And I yeah, I just I felt like I just knew exactly. What I want close to look like at the time. It's a weird thought now and I just yeah, I felt really confident about just going out and starting my own thing. And I I loved the idea. Of. Of building something that was mine and getting to work for myself. And yeah, I've got to. I felt like the opportunities came up with the like production contacts in India through friends of friends and then it kind of just all seemed like it was possible. So I felt like it just lined up for me and I just went for it. I like.
Akanksha
That, and I think it's like those kind of things, especially it's it takes a different level of skill. Just being like. Wait? These things are lining up like Oh my God, no? This is this is an actual. Thing that I should try it right. Now. Because I feel like that's happened so many people talk about it like I could have been a thing I'm like you could actually done it like. It was there. He should have taken the shot. Definitely yeah. It's daunting sometimes. Oh yeah, that seems at. The other end of it, right? So like. This is what I. Pronounced it was like this is such a off beaten. Path you're like. Oh this doesn't look right. How do we make this decision?
Tess
Yeah, totally. But I'm. OK, so the business. Kind of flying. And so he said he did that. For a few years. So how would I? Like kind of come right in and I guess or. Did not even stop. Yeah, so it's kind of like just life. A mixture of life, mental health and just progression I think is that is what came to an end. I moved to Melbourne with my ex husband. He got into medical school and so I became the main breadwinner in our relationship. And I. Was, you know, trying to make a little bit more money than my business was bringing in? You know, young business not not really paying for itself just yet. So I started working part time at a university working in student services just behind the health counter basically. Yeah, I just really liked my job. I still was juggling doing the business and I was finding it a lot. I was getting a lot of anxiety around, like perfectionism in my sewing 'cause I switched from producing in India to doing smaller production runs just by myself. So I had gotten some industrial machines and I had set up a whole home studio and and yeah, I think it definitely. If there was, if I knew those ones fish that was slightly crooked on the inside of a garment that's completely invisible to everyone, I would just. I feel like so much shame towards it and it really started to take its toll and I thought maybe I need to just give it a break. And yeah I was really enjoying my job at the university and kind of at the same time that I was feeling a bit of a bit of pressure with both gigs. I've got the opportunity to become the manager in those student services. Team that I was working in and so I took the full time role and ended up. Ended up stopping the business back about a year later when it. Just. Kind of kind of there. I lost the real buzz that I had for it, I think before.
Akanksha
Yeah, and I think. I mean like it's it. It takes a whole different level. Of like OK, I know. This needs to stop even though I mean I like it. I like what I'm creating and that kind of goes back to the whole. Why you? Started in the first place, right? But like I like that you. Appreciated the fact that their. perfectionism was kind of kicking game and I think. Even. For the podcast I remember at the start. Like every little sound I would go and be like. No, like this extra earth. Shouldn't be here or like? Yeah it's short and then like instead of the one second gap that was there I was showing it to half a second. Like it was just so ridiculous. Nebulous little things. And you're like. Uhm? Yes. I love you. This is too much for my concert. Like 40 people listen to this it's. Really worth your time right now, no? And. Will anybody listening to it notice? A half a second more that they've gotten, yeah. Of like non silence. It was a weird. Kind of a little thing, but I get that. Where you're like. I said underneath something.
Tess
Yes she is. And it's like bugging you. I know it's that's the basis for years, the exact. Same. Experience, it's just. Yeah, bit too much. But and I had. Just you know, kind of disconnected with the fashion scene a little bit. I wasn't. Uhm, I was having some ethical dilemmas about producing clothing, and I was like, well, you know, what's my purpose? What am I doing this for? And yeah, it's basically just the reason I went into it, because everything was lining up. It just seems like things just start lining up anymore and I wasn't really prepared to fight it. I was just like cool. I'm happy with this new role. I was getting opportunities to be a leader at work and I really loved the job that I had. And so I was OK with it and. Yeah I can just veered in a different pathway, yeah? I love it. Pass you know, yeah. They're all the same. It's lined up really well and I think I mean especially with those kind of things, and I think it's a lot. Easier, in this vantage is like, OK, no. This is this. Is run its? Course. I could kind of drag it along for the rest of my life. I had to like, that's fine, but I like that is like OK, no, it's fine let's. Just try it. Let's OK, let's move on my. Pivot, it's great. Yeah definitely.
Akanksha
So you're in the student. Center now leading the team, so how's that all going like? House all the leaderships. Kind of stuff. Picking in yeah she kind of going from running your own business. Kind of on the solo.
Tess
Yeah, that was like a really interesting time in my life because I think I was at 2425. When I started and I was the youngest person in my team, but I was also the youngest employee on the whole campus out of 150 teaching staff and various other academic staff. And I was in this. Kind of funny position where. I don't know, I just if I perfect sense that I was in the rocks. It was really confident I knew my job really well and I had really good repor with our students. Uhm, it was. It was a lot of fun for a long time and then then I started putting my hands up for everything 'cause we had a a somewhat of a big staff turn around and we grew a lot. It was a small. Private college when I started and it became a big like National University with like 9. Merges and you know all of these things like the weather about having that 500 students to having about 30,000. And so and I grew. I had two staff members and in the end there was eight, but I had inherited some of them, and so it was always tricky navigating, especially as a young woman. Yeah, and I was, you know, wearing glitter jumpsuit to work and then having to talk to 50 year old accounting professors about. You know student complaints and things like that. And you know it was difficult for them to take me seriously and I kind of loved that dynamic to be honest. 'cause you know, I knew my role. Talk to it though like it makes. Sense to do it? I'm like no. Yeah totally yeah. And it brought along. I mean it was a very rewarding job because basically I was a student advocate at the core of all of that I was just making sure that students you had to navigate their education and as I was dealing with complaints with disabilities with any kind of special needs that she might have in different areas. And guiding my team to help the bulk of our students. But then, yeah, I went. Through a couple bit of a. Burnout at the end. Basically I just. I understand Sir, for four years in the end, and I was ended up being one of the longest. You know, I I'd look around. I barely see anyone, but I've been working with, you know, four years ago. So I became kind of the go to person that had the knowledge in their head and everyone asked me questions that weren't necessarily related to what I was supposed to be doing, and I just I was really busy. And yeah, it was. Yeah, it was tricky and I was commuting to Sydney Tuesdays to Thursdays for quite awhile. Working on like internal projects that I would always go. Yeah, I'd love to be involved in that. Great opportunities, but just too many at the same time. Uhm, and so yeah, I just woke up one day in Sydney and Rank hi and said I need to go home like I'm not good and I took a month off. I had a huge burnout. Yeah I have I. Got I think, isn't it just so irritating sometimes there's like? This is actually. Still great, I enjoy doing this but Oh my God, I have literally run myself into the ground. Yeah, trying to do everything I want to be doing. Yeah, and so I still. I mean I kind of went through. Mini one like. The last year and it's just. I'm like. And for me. It's always a case of like. I would say yes to things in the future. I'm like, oh hey, can you come to a top? No. Stress whenever I book it in. Not a problem like if. I mean it's kind of crapped. Anyway, it's OK, like it's not gonna be. And it would get to a week where. I mean at the stars only like weeks like random weeks would be like an event every day or like a talk every single day like including full time where I was just like oh that was a stressful week. Let's start doing. That again, let's just make it through this one. Yeah, and that was like a. Month like that was just I'd. Said yes to things in the future. Kind of thing and they all just lined up. And. Oh my God I. Hated. Myself so much. And like I said. Everything individually would have been great, no problem. It's just odd. That whole thing of. Like no, I want to do. This this is great. I actually enjoy doing this. But Oh my God I hate. Myself. Yeah, yeah it's tricky because yeah, I loved it. But yeah, it's just too much. And now I'm so strict with with my commitments and you know, using time is like my most precious resource.
Akanksha
No, that's answer you took the month. Off and I'm like. Glad that they were. 8 like they were. Supportive to do that in the first place. Was just hard enough to find. Well, I think it's. Getting a little bit. Easier to find that this. Family, yes, but. It is hard to find people being. Supportive. But yeah, I was very lucky I I was really upfront about. What I was. Going through at the time and I got along really well with my with my direct boss. Uhm? So yeah, I was, and I actually during that month I got my first diagnosis for bipolar as well so. It was a. Really tricky time, but it also brought a lot of things together and started making a lot of sense as to why I was even capable of having those long periods of doing a million things and getting away with it because it just turned out that I was probably in a hypomanic episode. And and so you know, the slight superpower people talk about with bipolar. I guess it's somewhat there when you're. Unmedicated, but it also can be detrimental of course. Uhm, so that's that's when that came about and. Yeah I was. Upfront with my with my work about it and. When I went. Back to work. After that month they had put in place like a really strict. Coming back to work mental health care. Plan for me. Which I was really surprised that bad I was like I didn't know that that was a thing called and. No, I was gonna say like. I said it's nothing but also the fact. That they were. Proactive. Yeah, yeah. And. So I went. Back and I worked only. Four days a week. And I had kind of some. Strict rules that people weren't allowed to ask me to be involved in things that were outside of my role. Things like that. And then in the end, I was grateful for it, but in the end it made my. Job really boring. And I had actually. Automated most of my kind of day-to-day work that I really needed all those. Other. Projects for my job to be interesting and. Yeah. Just. It just wasn't that interesting anymore, and during the time when I was overworked and working in Sydney and things like that, one of the. Things I was. Working with is our internal dev team building student platforms. Uhm, which is kind of where. Things start to link into. Tech where I kind of got exposed. To it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I. Just talked about the fact that it automated. All these stuff I feel like that's. Like a little mini like the. Earliest pathway for a lot of like transitions that I've kind of chatted over the couple of episodes and stuff it's like. Well, it's not already doing stuff I was like. I knew I could. Just do a better job at times where I see something going wrong. Yeah, it's like there it is, that's right, yeah. Absolutely suck problem. Solving mind right? And I think, like I guess I consider myself like an Excel developer. Before, as I said, OK. 'cause I just love the good. Spreadsheet that could do stuff for me. Anything that makes. My life instead of like encircling 8 buttons I can do. One I'm like, Oh my. God, you can say this makes me saving it. Click satisfying. Job. Well done at the end of the bank I. Think I'm like if I did something, yeah totally. So what was next to your kind of aspie end of your road? A little bit with what's happening you kind of discovered most of the kind of job responsibilities you could at the university and that it's become that. Yes, so. Where? What what was next? So. At that point, it's. Kind of like personal life comes back into it like a my ex-husband had by that point, graduated Med school and we had kind of had it in our minds that I was supporting. Us through Med. School and that's why I was in this job to start with. And I knew. Working in customer service was probably not might be end goal for me, even though it had been good for for the time that I did work in it. And so it was always kind of agreed upon that I would get to figure out what I wanted to do once he graduated and he could support me. But as soon as I got that opportunity I just felt like I had no idea. So I just. I I was yeah, I was really lost with that and dumb. But I did end up still quitting my job because I just wasn't in it anymore and I was still. I was really struggling to find the right treatment for my bipolar and I really struggled to focus at work. It took me nearly two years to find proper medication for me, and during those times I had really unstable times where I spent time in the hospital for various reasons, whether it was lithium toxicity or suicidal behaviors and stuff like that. So it was really intense couple years. But yeah, I just I stopped working, had a huge identity crisis. And then yeah, one conversation with a friend. I was up in Brisbane where my family lives. I think it was around Christmas time when you or something and. A friend of my sisters who usually lives during the year in the French Alps and works remotely as a developer for like a San Francisco based startup. Various died after he changes jobs all the time, but is there no like a? High. Life. That I know. And I thought he was doing at the time. I'm not quite sure what he's doing now, but yeah, he was earning like a really high salary. Was working from a beautiful place and he's like just learn how to code. Like you'll get a job like no problem as a woman, especially at the moment 'cause you know there's gender quotas. It's fine pays well, it's flexible. And in the moment I was just like yeah alright, I'll do that. And I was just I was seriously convinced. Uhm yeah, I just went straight online and did like. Probably like. Code Academy or something like some free online little tutorials like JavaScript or something. You know, yeah. But probably a couple weeks later I signed up for the Cutter Academy bootcamp and like a few weeks after that I started and six months later I was employed. Became a developer. Here we. Are I fish bass boom? And everything but I mean like. I thought you. Might crash, right? So like she, yes she was gone through. So yeah, she was at coda. She I don't think she was teaching. Anymore. When I started, but she was. They're in in some capacity. And involved in the in the boot camp still yeah. Yeah, so for anyone listening. Gretsch has done an episode in the past as well and like she talked about how she got in decoder and it was like she's. Like she like. On a weekend she was born was kind of similar. Things like someone kind of mentioned her thing and she's like OK, cool. She's like it's a thing from. Monday and she started. Just like. Yeah, it's just. Not a great thing to do. It yeah, so I guess. I'm doing this tomorrow. OK. But it's. Really big. A lot of. The time it's just a case of like don't let yourself overthinking. Yes, like. Just. Yeah. Just get. Into it like there's so much online. Courses available and for free. As well like that, it's really really. Accessible at times. Would just be like OK, let me. See how. Well. It will be a. Fit and if it is. Then you can go do all the other things. Like it starts. Like I mean didn't go on into a big cab. How was your boot camp experience? So? We've had a few people have pivoted into tech using boot camp, so I feel like everyone's experience has been quite similar, but also very different at the same. Time, yeah, I think. I didn't have huge expectations of like. What I would? Learn in the bootcamp if that makes sense. 'cause I think. Having worked in private education, which is what most boot camps are there they're more expensive than not publicly funded, and this is a certain kind of reputation that you're just paying for the piece of paper and you're paying for the handshakes of the people that they'll introduce you to get you a job. And I feel like I went into it knowing that, and I just thought I'm paying $21,000 to secure an internship, because these people will hook me up and then. Anything I learn? On top of that, it will help set me up. For success, it was a bonus to me. So I know. That's a really backwards way of approaching education, but a lot of the other students in my boot camp that had really, really high hopes of learning how to be a developer in six months were disappointed because it's really hard to learn how to code in six months. Uhm, and so I definitely had the mindset that I just wanted to be exposed. To the different. Bits that you know that you need to know about when you're an engineer. And I wanted. To know how it works on a bigger scale and then I wanted to have the opportunity to learn more about it in the job or in an internship. Uhm, so my experience. Of it in that way was good because I had set my expectations, yeah. I mean like black if anything. Someone takes away from this is just. Set your expectations. To a. Level you'll be OK. With yeah yeah. It's not like the. Easiest advice to have yes which everyone. Knows and kind of forget all the time. It's hard. To write because I mean, yeah, if you're like a dreamer, you think Gray, I can change my life and learn all these things. We can, I think it's also just about. Your mindset and how. Much you've got to give every day because the boot camp. While the six month version that I did a coder is. It's nice 5. Monday to Friday every day for six months, that's a big commitment. And. I just felt like all the only goal really that I set myself in terms of learning while I was there is just to show up I didn't miss. I didn't tell myself. As you know, right? The best terminal applications or, you know, make sure you're like acing all the quizzes or the coding challenges in the morning. I was just like. You don't need to do anything 'cause. This is a. Pass fail scenario. You just need a posse assessment. Get the piece of paper. Get the internship. All you have to do to achieve that is just to show up every day and try. Uhm, and so yeah, I just I figured that even if I wasn't really focused that day, if I still showed up, I would somehow learn by smoke this anyway, so I just just show. Up yeah it's a. Really good way. No, I'm sorry, but that isn't absolutely. Great way of approaching this, especially with tech. Where like I don't? I mean, I definitely have days where I'm like. I'll spend like. Four days trying to solve something I will go away for the. Weekend come back Oh yeah. 5 minutes I'm done and I'm like. This is a joke, like what is? This I hate. This life, but then at the same time, like the high of. Getting MPLS. Something. Working I know. Next one, let's go. Yes, bizarre I paid it. Yet I'm still here I. Think that wanting to be perfect. In engineering and. Yeah, overthinking things can be really detrimental, so. Yeah, just like being an observer and. Yeah. I don't know. Try not to stress so much all the time. It I feel. Like it, just it kind of just works, even though it's not so natural to do most of the time. And he has definitely gotten. Very OK with having a solution together. And then fixing it later. Like I'm like I needed. To just work. Best relation is the working solution. Right? Yeah. Exactly, and I'm like if it needs to look like. 70 different pieces duct taped. Together so he is we like super. Glue it after like I don't care anymore. Yeah. And I think it has helped and he definitely. In terms of. Like 'cause I mean. I would end up. Spending so much time just making sure. OK, like this is not the like. Instead of having it in like that. Aluth, where it's like it will do everything for me. I'll just write. It out. 18 different times. For the press. Because like I just want to see how every step. Works. It'll fix to do that and then we go back and joint, yeah? And I think it's the off. But yeah, I'm. Taking a break, but like I'm sorry your experience as it's different like I haven't heard anyone putting it that way. I think it's so important if that expectation setting of. Its six mountains there's. Only so much the human brain can do in. Six months, yes. Not just however much motivation you want to put behind her or like that. Determination of being like. I will do it and like there is. A physical. Limitation. There is and yeah, I think some of the other people in my class. Yeah, they're making complaints. They're like, oh, we should know this by now. We should know. This employees want us to know that I'm like. What do you want? Them to fit in six months like it's. It's just not gonna workout and then you go for a 3 year degree and you'll be taught a lot of things that aren't even applicable to the job. So you know, I don't think there's a perfect way to really teach this. I think it's. It's it's, you know, it needs to be complemented by on the work on the job training for sure. Yeah, and I think you. Mentioned how can it was like I just need to pick up their bits so it makes sense movement, yeah? Right, and I think. I mean it definitely. Applies. I did a degree. Of financial maths, yeah. Sure, like. It was literally I'm not even joking like. We would go in. And the lecturer. Would write with chalk on the board. And we would. Write things down formulas like. Far from taxes you can imagine. And I mean. Everything I. Learned. Around data science and everything. It was on the job. But because I kind of had picked up enough generic stuff before that was like OK, we can figure most of this as we go, and I think that's kind of similar. In that sense. Yeah, OK, I know how things work or words will spark something in my head that I can Google exactly what it's. About it's really about knowing what questions you might wanna ask, right? 'cause if you don't know anything then you're just like. Just last time, but if you know what that word might. Mean you're like? Oh, is that how that? Relates to this and then you've got your. You know you're making links and ties when someone is trying to teach you about something or someone is exposing. You to new. Contact, yeah it's yeah all about. Yeah, figuring out where to look for the information and had asked the right questions and having that base college gives you that ability to do that better. Yeah, no, exactly and. Also talk to me then about like how, what? It was like. Actually coming out of the boot camp with. Kind of your own experience. Of like trying to get an internship and stuff. How did that go for? You so with coder they we kind of did an internship. Application through, like they've got a contact at the. At the college that helps you line up some internships, you cannot apply for them as well outside of that, but I leverage that 'cause I, you know, that's what I was paying my money for was like, oh. Give me your. Connections. And I had a couple. Of interviews I had a couple of internship offers and I just picked the one that paid me more, which is always. I mean, not always the best choice. No, but it's I mean I made. Sense at the time right here, like you've. Just spent so. Much money learning and spending on the degree like yeah. It has to be done. I was gonna be. Picky about looks. So the intention by picked was a longer internship and it they yeah they paid us whereas the other one was going to be a bit shorter and about half the pay and I just got which which is the one that's going to culminate in a job. Probably the one at the bigger firm with a bigger budget. And it was a consultancy rather than a design agency. And so I thought, well, I'm gonna have. Maybe the ability to work in different size. You know up the puzzle, so I had a good vibe I think. When I was. Interviewing for the. Internship. I definitely was going into it with the idea that I was actually interviewing them. You know, I think it's important to understand that. Yeah, you're committing to them and then I'm just committing to you, and it's not. Yeah, you're taking a chance. On the company as well, and if you see red flags around culture and around how they treat people, or you know they're approached the work or even the kind of contracts they have that you might not agree with like that's gonna become a problem later on and that there is something to be said for just taking your first job at wherever you can and then just putting in. You know your hours as a junior and then finding something better later. But I guess I felt like I had the opportunity really quickly to pick where I wanted to go. And I felt grateful for that. Yeah, it was definitely there.
Akanksha
I'm very glad you talked about the interview part of Hike. You're not on the hot seat like you have the power. And.
Tess
Especially, I thought at that.
Akanksha
Stage of your career like. I didn't like. I think I had it right. I was like I need that it's so interesting how we compare this to so I haven't really thought about this before. But I remember going in for like. Graduate outlook interviews and stuff after college. Or during college even I remember. Like you know the whole like Heidi. Do interviews like make sure you have your questions at the end because it shows that you're interested. He's like looking. Back I hate us that see like. Reasoning for it, it's like. Yeah. Hard.
Tess
Questions like you know what you're getting?
Akanksha
Yourself into yeah. It should be. That not just like oh. Let's pretend. You're interested. Like I mean, I've always had questions and. Now. It's. Interesting. That I was kind of talking about this recently. And also like. Since I'm new jobs and stuff and it's like. I mean, especially in tech right now with the way the market is like so many people keep reaching out right now. There is such a shortage. In Australia at least.
Tess
Yes, I was like dad like this is so weird. It's like I'm interviewing them. How could they?
Akanksha
Yes. What? Like a whole life turn of tables like so quickly.
Tess
And. Levine
Akanksha
I start that that's what it took me to realize a kind of had that power the whole time. Yeah, like it now I'm just like if I'm not asking questions for half the interview. This is not a good interview because it's a 5050 like this. Doesn't make sense to me. And I mean. It's it's we wouldn't. It's a win for the company to. If you're only going to agree with it. If you really want it, not if you're just desperate for the salary, because it probably means you'll stick around right? So just it's a win for everyone if it's. If it's a proper cultural. But not just like cool. I got a job. But I mean. Obviously that comes from a slightly privileged perspective. Some people just need a job right like that. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely very much kind of that like. I know this is a recent conversation. Harder. And the whole like you. Know right now. The great resignation. Is out there calling it at the moment. For. Everyone. Their jobs and stuff. And I'm like. So happy for them. Right, I'm like don't get me wrong and then someone like I quit my job.
Tess
Because I hate.
Akanksha
It, but where it? Was and it was a bit toxic.
Tess
But to be able. To do that, it's just such a.
Akanksha
Privileged position. To be in. To begin with, like it's crazy and it's yeah we talk about how like just quit it because you hate it when you clearly you talking about how much. You hate them. But it's just so not a possibility for so. Many people in there right? Yeah, I mean, yeah. Too bad about bills and stuff and how living is not free. I remember my friend at one stage in. College was like. I'm sorry, where did I ever? Ask to be born into this. Yeah, I didn't. Ask to have to. Born to be born to pay. Bills like what is? This. Ridiculous.
Tess
But I think no which.
Akanksha
Is I mean I bring this up essentially just because like I'm so glad you talked about the personal. Parts of it, and I. Feel like at this stage in the last like. 6. Episodes I said these exact same things, so hey, if there's repeat listeners, I'm sorry for saying the same thing but. There are. Lives behind technology and those lives behind careers and decisions that people, especially in interviews, just don't kind of think about it like I mean, taking personal breaks and taking time off where you need it. So I just be like, Nope, I'm I need this time right now. It's just basically survive past. This. It's important. And I think. People don't put it on stock into.
Tess
It like I think.
Akanksha
People come out way stronger having taken bright. Yeah. Then just pushing through some jobs at times. Definitely yeah for sure I was. I felt like. A. When I finally did agree to, you know, I took my job offer. I was just feeling really comfortable in that decision. And look just not stressed. I didn't feel like. I was, you know. Having to bow down to the people who had hired me, I felt like they wanted me there and I had. And I wanted. To be there too, if I feel this mutual respect, that kind of came from like feeling. Like I had. The power to say yes or no to the job. And yeah, I felt quite valued pretty quickly in my internship, which I think was really important. It made me feel like I wasn't. Like you know it's it's. Definitely not like, oh you're there and you're working overtime to try and prove your worth as a junior and so that they'll notice you. And you know, I just thought. Well, if I'm there. Past five o'clock they're gonna think. You know, I don't. Have good time management skills like whatever like I'm going home. If I'm not playing table tennis, the most morning to break something wrong. You know it's definitely. And I will juggle of like working and being focused, but definitely always taking those breaks and leaving on time. That was so important to me, and I'm glad that it that smile, the company that I ended up working with really understood and valued at 2. Yeah, and I. Think I mean. I don't think people understand at times unless they've been in that position of power of feeling that valued this at the start of it. Like the understanding of that culture and everything to begin with, until you've been in there, you know, like. Whole. Wow, OK this is. Different, this is just unprecedented, kind of. Thing 'cause I remember. When I started my first like the grad job at ratify.
Tess
And I think my.
Akanksha
Secondary and they're like, oh, that's in the power be. I like reporting system and I'm like what stop? Yeah, I don't even know what that is tell me more and it's basically all of our financial. Reporting. Was transparent like everyone had access to it. Every could see exactly what our turnovers were everywhere. Obviously not like personal information in there, but the company still sucks. Yeah, we are in this company. We're building towards this. Everyone should have access to what's going on. I'm sorry guys. Been here two days why?
Tess
Are you sure?
Akanksha
This is a bit weird, but it. Goes back to that whole like oh I'm wanted. Here and I. Want to stay? Here. And it just. All lines up really, really well I think. That's a good. Sign. If I'm a company. When there's transparency like that from everyone. And yes, yes, feeling valued like so. She has an intern. When you kind of feel like, oh, I'm just the one that's here to learn and I'm not contributing any value to the company, but they made us feel like we were contributing. Like, you know, cultural worth from the start and we were just part of the big thing. And oh, you know my third day at mental group I was on a company ski trip.
Tess
I was like.
Akanksha
Cool, this is great. Jackpot. So you picked the. Right, I think you did, yeah. So that internship, I'm assuming then transferred over into full time jobs. Yes, so after I think it was a nine week internship. UM and yeah, so mental group has like an umbrella for a bunch of brands and basically we've got a few job offers. All those four interns in my cohort and we all got job offers too. Three of the different brands I quickly learn become card engineers or or just standard software engineers. So at the time, platform and class starts just terrified. Me. House like no way these people are in the basement. I'm gonna be had such a stigmatized view of it. Right, yes, so I'm now friends with some platform engineers and they're OK. They're not just in the basement, no. There, it's good. To. See you. Sometimes. Yeah no. Yeah, we got. We got an. Offer and you got given the option to have a break and start. Later or start. Straight away and I just went straight into it. And. It was a little. Bit of a. Tricky transition only because because it's a consultancy getting the job offer didn't mean that I was actually going to be out on the client side straight away because they still have to negotiate placing me with a client that was going to be like willing to have an associate engineer who's just finished an internship come onto their project. Uhm, so they were already in talks with a Z. One of their biggest client about bringing on a bunch of junior engineers to the to their projects, but it just took a little while. It took nearly three months. And so during that time I was on the bench. It's just what they refer to, and you know, and you're a consultant with no client. So yeah, I kind of just felt like, you know, not getting picked on the sports team. And at first I was like cool, I get paid to. Hang around the. Office eat the free snacks, play table tennis and do self learning. I mean, I was contributing a little bit to an internal project. For a while. But mental building in house like a little mini in-house startup. But yeah, for the most part they were like I ain't said you're going to be writing and go so. You know you. Should just use that time to upskill and then go. So I was like cool I don't. You know what? Go is and then they're like. You would just be purely back and I was like. Oh I just thought I'd be writing.
Tess
CSS my whole life.
Akanksha
Interesting, better learn whatever you know what an API truly does. What's GRPC. I don't know. Yeah, I just, you know, bought a bunch of you to be courses that just play table tennis and did self learning for three months. This is. Like the untold truth about consulting, isn't it? Yes, don't get me wrong, there's definitely consulting places that are. Like go go go, yeah, here's more. Here's more. Where I care in and your eye. And I don't. Hate them and. Then I also hate. Like six months straight of like.
Tess
Yeah.
Akanksha
Just learning you got. This take, I know. Like I. Am dying by myself please. Oh yeah. And. So hard to find the good. Part Yeah, yeah, definitely at. First I was like. Great, this is brilliant and then I was like. Oh, why doesn't anybody want? Me. I never like. I do not want to do. That like it's. Fine, don't worry about. It I'm just talking to my mentor and I'm like this sucks and he was like. Just the way it is like it's. Just the way I take it personally. Yeah, the Seinfeld is consulting. And then the. Minute, you're on a client, you're like. Oh, I wish us on the bench. I know we shouldn't have 100. Things to do? Yeah. Oh, but like you know you sound. So happy at Mantle, I'm so glad that you found. Your way to cut. At the moment. Where it's everything is working and everything. Is kind of keeping you challenged and everything's going well, exactly. Yes. Fingers crossed it stays that way. Oh, and I'm very happy for you and I'm so glad that you kind of came on and shared everything about it, especially like the whole part of obviously like everything else happens in the background and there's other decisions to be made other than just hey, will this be a good step up as an X direction and this is better money which is don't get me wrong quite fairly. A lot of people. Sufficient meetings. But yeah and then. The fact that, like I've been like. It's such a different experience and I think your. Outlook on things is.
Tess
Very.
Akanksha
Good and I'm. Very. Appreciative of the fact that he talked about it. Like the whole like. Set your expectations too, and I mean for me, like listening to it as like set my expectations to what I truthfully know about myself.
Tess
Very. Different to what I?
Akanksha
Imagine of myself at times like for the six month bootcamp. I'm like I could have said I'm like I know like fake me would have been like, yeah, I think definitely go in like we learn something every day and I'm like there is no hope in hell. Yeah actually happened for me. It's hot. Yeah, it's so hard keeping it going, but I'm so glad they shared all that stuff for those. And thank you it's OK. Thanks for having me nice chat. I love it and I'm sure there's gonna be loads more common along. I mean, we'll definitely get literally just recently had like one of the past guests who've just moved into a completely new career in technology. And I was like a path continued. I like. It. I'm sure there's going to be so much. More coming down the. Line for you as well tests and. We will. Get you back on and we'll. Talk. More about it. Once we do good. Perfect. Will be back again with another episode of pattern. Covered in two weeks time and until then. Stay safe, I guess yeah, and keep saying I think that's a good one to end on today. I think it's fair.
