Episode 14: Kris Howard
FILM & THEATRE - WEBSITE DEV - BURNOUT - CRAFT STORE RETAIL - BA - PEOPLE LEADER - TECH LEADER - DEV EVANGELIST - AWS
Kris has led an illustrious career from building websites - including the McDonalds UK homepage! - diving into the development world and leading it.
She shared her experiences and lessons learnt not just from the technical parts of jobs but overall in her career. From life decisions of relocations and even leaving tech due to burnout, she openly shared the decisions that has lead to such an amazing and fulfilling career.
From building your community to choosing the right opportunities, doing the scary thing and always asking for more money - we’ve got it all in this episode!
This short blurb really doesn’t do it all justice, listen/watch/read now!
Listen:
Watch:
Read:
Below is the episode transcript. This is automated through Azure Cognitive Speech Services. There is more training and customisation work coming for improved accuracy.
In the meantime please bare with any missing words/grammar/typos - the AI is learning!
Transcript
Akanksha
Cool. OK. This is how I like starting like. OK, let me get my breath back and get some English back in my brain.
Kris
I just finished pounding my coffee, so I'm caffeinated I'm ready to go I love it.
Akanksha
Right, welcome back everyone to another episode of Paths Uncovered. It’s a podcast where we get to talk about all the untraditional pathways that people have taken into technology and create a little platform for all the representation out there. And today I've got another great guest. And. I have legit just. I keep trying to come up with a really cool way of doing introductions and I keep failing because I keep just saying I've got a really great guest because they all are. I've got Kris Howard with me and I’ll let her do her own introductions.
Kris
Oh well, thank you very much. As you said my name is Chris. You'll notice the accent, I grew up in the States and I married an Aussie and lived in Sydney for the last 20 well not the last, but I lived in Sydney for like 20 years, where the bulk of my tech career was. And then last year we moved to Munich, Germany. In the middle of the pandemic. So we just hit one year in Germany. And um yeah it's flown by. I work for Amazon Web Services but I have been a developer, a BA, a People Leader all different things in my career, I'm sure we'll get into all that today.
Akanksha
I love it. This is like the ideal. Start.
Kris
I mean, you told me you started a podcast during lockdown. I started a knitting stream on Twitch. Desperate, I was for human. Contact
Akanksha
right? Well, let's take it all the. Way back talk to me around. I know God. Talk to me about high school kind of college times. What were the decisions like? What were the original pathways that you'd kind of pristine for yourself?
Kris
Yeah. Well. I grew up in Indiana, which is the boring part. No ones ever. Visited in the middle of the US. And. My. Mom. Actually it was. Interesting, we always had a. Computer like we got a computer pretty early. When I was a kid. We had one of the Atari personal computers that were the first ones to come out and look. It wasn't like we were a very neither of my parents had gone to college. We weren't a very you know, like academic family or anything like. That I think. It was just my mom was always really curious about. It so from the age of like.
Akanksha
The temple is in.
Kris
School we always had a. Computer. And so it was never a scary to. Me, you know I didn't. I wasn't like it, and some of the guys. My age, you know they're like. Oh, it was. Building them and. Putting them to get no, I didn't do that. I I played. Games on them. I I you know. Wrote some programs. And things but. Never like super Tinkeri just like I used them. They were tool. And. As I got older, my mom. Moved into like she got basically ended up working her way into being a sysadmin. At the local. Manufacturing company. Entirely self taught. So I had this. Strong female role model in tech. In my house and by the. Time I went off to. College. And in EU. S unlike, say, other places like Australia you. Don't have to. Know what you're gonna do when you go. You know you get it and then you. Figure it out. And so I I got in and I spent. I pretty much put off the decision. As long as I could, but I was. Going to do.
Akanksha
The thing is the.
Kris
Computer. Science building. It was. This. Horrible. Concrete building filled with guys who always been like tinkering. And I looked at the. Courses. And it was like you're gonna write. See, I don't want to do that. I was learning about the. Internet. This is when the Internet was really. Tagging. Off I wanted to. Build websites I didn't. Want to? Write. Little. C. Programs, and I'm like I'm not going to do that, I ended. Up doing a film and theater. Degree. Because writing and talking to people. And. Presenting, I'd always done. Speech team a competitive speech team in high school. These are the things. That I loved and was passionate. About and I used. My. Computer skills to support to. In that respect I built a website in college for overall doll which is still going. 25 years later 20 yes. World all fans. Dot com if anyone's keen. But yeah. So I didn't. Do that can be. I didn't do the computer. Science. Degree. And it's. Something I did or.
Akanksha
A bad way do you think in terms of like like regret not having done it or you're like? Yes, I'm glad I did all these other things that I still was able to then do computers afterwards. Computers. Programming.
Kris
I think I regret not doing it. I think I regret not doing it because I. I heard a great talk at. Geek Girl Sydney meet up many years. Ago it was. Who? Did the talk. I think it was Katie. Bell who's? An amazing person who's ever on the show. To Katie Bell was. Talking, I believe was Katie about the book growth mindset by Carol Dweck. And was sort of like doing like a book report. For this meet. Up and was talking about. How? How many times do girls who?
Akanksha
Were praised for being smart 'cause.
Kris
I was always smart. I was the valedictorian. Of my high school. Class. Young women who are. Praised. For being. Smart. Get. Afraid to. Do. Things that they might not be good at. And I really sort of wonder how many things I. Turned. Down because I was worried I wasn't gonna be good at him and I suspect computer size was the ultimate one there. I think I III really my hearts in fact probably turned it down. I've justified it to myself. I didn't want to do that. Those guys didn't look like. Me I was. Intimidated, it didn't feel welcoming when really I suspect at the bottom I was afraid I did the thing I would know I would be good at as opposed to the thing that would challenge me to a bit of regret. There I I haven't. I don't think I would say I needed. It for my career I've. Carved out a pretty decent career without it. But I. I saw some Facebook meeting this. Morning that was like. Go back to your 18 year old self. In three years, what would you? Say and I actually. Thought to myself, I would probably say. Do computer. Science.
Akanksha
I feel very seen. By beyond the statement of like yes, I mean. I mean, I was smart in. School too and. You're like, yeah, of course I'll do this. And I was like I got. Mattson school therefore I did a degree. In math, which got huge. Regards at times late at home 'cause I mean. There's a lot of good stuff. That came out of. That degree, but at the same time I just. Kind of picked it because that was your alternative. Like I was like, OK, cool do. It here God that was. Thanks for that, kind of. Reflectiveness on this with the evening.
Kris
It's an amazing book if you. Want to read the whole book 'cause? It kind of gets. Repetitive, but there's like a it's like a Ted. Talk or you? Tube. Watch it because. It. Changed my life like. After I heard her give that talk, I started consciously. Doing things that I that I. I didn't want to, I did. A three day Haskell programming course. The Queensland functional. Programming group did. Is the hardest thing I ever did I came. Home. This was like three years ago 3. Years ago I came home every day and tears. From this course. Like the first day I was like.
Akanksha
I'm not going.
Kris
Back my husband like you're.
Akanksha
Going back, it was like Joe.
Kris
And I forced myself like I'll. Just. Worst case scenario, I'll just sit. There. And. Guess what day two was actually. Not quite as. Bad Day 3. Was not quite as. Bad and like. 50% of people dropped out, so like. Just sticking it. Through I was. Like I did this. I did a. Welding course. Even though I was. Really worried I was like I'm. Gonna suck, I was gonna make fun of. Me. I learned soldering at a Linux. Comp all things that. Before I would have said. I I'm just not. Interested in that. And the reality was no, I totally. Was interested, I was just. Kind of afraid that I would suck at it. And people would laugh. Me. And so I just. Think growth, mindset, growth mindset. And I give it a go.
Akanksha
I like it. I love it like. I mean, I've been trying like. The job amid now, which is like a kind of like a jump off the deep end 'cause it was like, oh senior. Position and I'm like. This terribly lumber, but like we'll do it, it'll be. Fine, I'm sure, and I was like I catch homeless. I like anyone who behaves. Like why did you make that decision and my?
Kris
It's the one.
Akanksha
That I was. Like uncomfortable with and I was like. So proud of saying that. Right and I was like I'm. Yes, this is A at the same time like. Did I like did I just? Do that on purpose. Now I'm like I had to be uncomfortable and I think that fully throw or was that just a case of like I have to take the jump? And I'm like. It's. Interesting how those kind of things. Work, I think they're like. Yeah, what am I doing? I think maybe.
Kris
The other maybe the other valid. Reward advice then is do scary things.
Akanksha
Like
Kris
that you know.
Akanksha
Whatever scares do. It. What's the harm? Yep. So. What? Happened then, so you graduated with. Filled. And periodic still container yes.
Kris
Yes, yes film and theater. I was lucky enough. To do a semester in London? As part of that, I always. Knew I wanted to go overseas and. London, you know? I was a bit of an angle. File as a kid and Roald Dahl. Obviously it was. I was a big fan of world also did. A semester in London. And just loved it so much. And so when I graduated in in 1999. It. Was the beginning. Ofthe.com boom. Like the Internet was. Taking off and so I would there was a program. Called. Bunac British universities North American. Something or other? And so I got a. Six month work Visa so. All I knew. After I graduated was. I want to be there. And I want to build. Websites. So I went. On Yahoo. Because we didn't have good.
Akanksha
This was pre Google.
Kris
And I typed in HTML. Or web design? Web companies London. And I emailed them. All saying I know HTML 'cause I build websites through college and. They're all like great. Let's do an interview and within 3. Days of landing in London. I had a job. Making more money than most of the people in my family, I found a sharehouse. In Baker St. With some amazing. People who I still correspond. With and it was. So fun, I think I was about two weeks in and I got. Introduced to this Australian. Guy that we were going to be on the same project together and he saw me reading. Slashdot firstsite now he's downstairs.
Akanksha
Playing World of Warcraft.
Kris
So yeah, and and that was. Honestly 22 the most. Fun years of my life. Being in London right after college we felt like we were building. The. Future I did the. Entire, I wrote the entire front end. HTML of McDonald's? Dot co.uk, uh, that was one. Project we built the. UK. 's first wine. Retailer, I remember that mad about wine. I mean other than McDonald's? I think most of the sites I worked on Argonne like that's the one sad thing because. You know? We thought we were. Like what we were building was like, literally we're all gonna be millionaires. And. And. Now I look. At the people in the bubble. And I think. Kids I've. Been there like we'll get.
Akanksha
Stock options and you're gonna be rich and everything. And you know, ended up in.
Kris
Another big share house. With what my now?
Akanksha
Husband and a bunch of other people.
Kris
From the office. It was so much fun and.
Akanksha
Then
Kris
towards the end of. 2001 by 2001. The shine was coming off like we started hearing like some companies were starting to lay people off. And then September 11th happened. I remember I was I was in London when that. Happened and coming home. That night, watching the news and my partner and we were like, alright suddenly. Being in London doesn't feel fun anymore. You know? It. It felt like alright. Maybe we want to not be here. And we started thinking about it and there. Was a fairly. Easy pathway to get me into Australia 'cause we've been together. By you know a. Couple years at that point had lived together for a year, and. We're like, oh there's. This defacto spouse thing I can get into. Australia. Pretty easily it would have been much. Harder to get it into the US. And I visited. Sydney and I I knew I liked Australia and so yeah end of 2001. Our company started math layoffs. You know, the market crash happened and. We we.
Akanksha
Basically took the.
Kris
Payout. Like we put our hands. Up for it 'cause it was. Really nice it was like. Three months salary. In British pounds. At the time and. So we moved to Sydney set up.
Akanksha
House and.
Kris
Basically. Didn't work for like a. Year and it was. It was. Great, so that's that's how I ended up in Australia and once I got my work visa. Approved I started looking for more more Web developer. Jobs.
Akanksha
I love it. I think it's like, I mean, it's interesting. And I talk. About this a. Lot throughout the podcast threads. People seem to tend. To think of careers as like oh they. Made this jump and then they want. This job and then they wanted this. Job and why? Well, no, there's people, there's people. Who are living their lives? And are making. Decisions based on their lives, not necessarily based on oh where's the next big paycheck coming from, or what job? Do I want next not? Necessarily. And that that's kind of. That, like epitome of it where it's like well. Removed because this big thing happened were like let's. Just. Recall it, let's qualify what we want with everything. At the moment I like. I'm very glad that you talked about this because. Not enough people do, and not enough people put a focus on that aspect. Of people's journeys.
Kris
Yeah, I mean I. Think you could arguably like? Looking back, I could say it might have been. Better long term for my career to stay. I was by. That outlook I was. Two years out of UNI, but I was. One of the most senior. You know front end. Developers in the company I was interviewing already other people I was helping set standards. And you know a. Couple of the people that I worked with who. Stayed in the UK in the industry. And who like toughed it out? During the during the the. Crash. They're now fairly high up in their. Career, you know one of them, Christian Heilmann he he was a developer evangelist. For Microsoft for Fire Fox. I I I see him now he's in Germany like. Some of the. People I worked with has gone to become. Really big in the industry and I'm. I'm very happy with the choices. I made but I'm always a. Little bit like, oh, if I'd. Stayed in London. Like I wonder what I could. Have done.
Akanksha
Yeah.
Kris
You know?
Akanksha
2020 all right? Yeah, I guess that I think. I mean, I think, especially with the whole way the lockdowns have gone. I think I think. About this all the time, because when I moved to Australia it like it was a kind of I'm leaving in 2. Weeks to see you. Later. Alright. Bye. Thanks for getting me through the later. And I think about. That a lot, especially over the last little while. Where I'm like. I see like I like. I mean I'm. I'm still. Very close to mine. And keep in touch with all my friends and like. Time. I. Was at. Right? Like should I moved? I mean, yeah. It's like it made so much sense in terms. Of my career and like my family. Was here and everything made sense, but at the same time you still. Here, like what would have been like. If I hadn't. Or would it have been different and it's it's so interesting how those kind of questions will always come up even though I know I'm pretty OK with everything I've made us with decision so far.
Kris
I think I think the decisions. That I thought were big. Decisions. In the end, have not been and the ones. That I didn't realize were like you don't realize. When you're at those big inflection points like. You don't realize like whether. Or not, do I do this degree? Is that I'm actually gonna. Regret that, or whether or not. We we we leave and go to EU. S or Australia or stay. Not realizing the impact when you're young, that's gonna have. I don't like. Stress people out like it turned out OK, it will still likely turn out OK either way. But you don't realize until 20 years later that you like. I wonder what would have. You know, sliding doors moment like there's another. Me in London. To work on the tube. And.
Akanksha
Yeah, oh purpose so a year in Sydney. Like living up to life. The Australian life that they put through on the tourism board. That's where which is just the ideal life. But what happens after the year of?
Kris
No, it was not. It was not fun that.
Akanksha
First year I should.
Kris
Say I mean we didn't. Work.
Akanksha
Oh OK, this is even better. It tell me about that.
Kris
I didn't know anyone. I had no friends.
Akanksha
Oh my God I. Feel this so hard to tell, yes. Talk to me.
Kris
The only people the only people I knew were my. Husband's friends. You know and family. 'cause he had some but. We're both. Computer people. As well, so it's not. Like we were. Huge. Social butterflies anyway. And. I I felt. Very. I made a patchwork. Quilt with shirts from the op shop. Like I was just like I'm. Just gonna do hobbies at. Home. Like and the thing that saved me it's. Like I said, I I went and I. Discovered this craft store in Sydney at the time called Tapestry Craft, which is now Morris and sons. And about like a. Cross stitch kit. 'cause I was like my mom was also kind of crafty so I was like I'll I'll take up a. Hobby while waiting for my. Work. Visa. And I'm not a. Beachy. Person and like what else am I gonna? Do. You know there was no. Netflix back in children. So I was like I'll work on my website. And I'll. Teach a cross stitch or. Whatever, and I found this craft. Messaging board called, I think was called glitter. Back in the day it was like. A craft forum where people would share different craft ideas. And. I became sort of into. That and started, you know posting on that pre Twitter as well and one day. One of this sort of. Australian chats people were like, oh, do you want to have an in person meet up in Sydney? And I was like. And we met up at the. Bar and Martin place in. Sydney. And I remember being. Really conflicted on whether to go 'cause I'm like, I'm gonna. Go meet up with randoms. And what if they're not nice? And I remember. Being so shy. And I went. And they were all lovely. And one of my. Best friends Amy Allen Spa, who's? Back in Sydney we met. At that and we talk about it now. Love it was like 20 years ago that we met at that stupid. Message. Board meet up and we've been friends to. This day we have a WhatsApp. Chat open and we chat every single day. And so that. Was where I felt. Started to feel like I belong. 'cause I made my. Own friends that were separate from like my partner. And that we. Had shared hobbies. And. So. That's when things got really good. In Australia and then I got my work. Visa and I could get a proper job. You know, I've been. Doing a little freelancing. But like. That's when things started to become good. So the first six months. Where I was. Yes, it was exciting setting up in a new. Place also, I just felt very isolated and alone. And we didn't have, you know, zoom. And stuff to do. Cats with people. And. Yeah. I I did.
Akanksha
Go and I think yeah, I I don't think anyone I've ever met. I mean, I've I've met quite a few people have likely. Located like this like a. Big like Big City jumps and stuff. I don't think. I've ever met. Anyone who's been like in at least it took like six months plus to be like, OK, Now I kind of get it like now it makes sense like because yeah, when I first moved here I was just like I go to. Work. This. Job of kind of somehow fallen into and I come home to my family and I'm like this copy is. I hate it I have I'm leaving like I wasn't dead set on like I'm going back I can go back to Ireland I can't do this for like solid like 4-5 months. And then I was like.
Kris
Actually no, yeah.
Akanksha
OK, like I'm trying to make friends and it's like. It makes a difference when you find your own little community and you're like no, I'm OK now. This is OK, this makes sense.
Kris
Every big move I've had that. Moment like I swear like a week after got to London.
Akanksha
Nickelodeon like us so.
Kris
Hard by. Nearly by.
Akanksha
Yourself and then.
Kris
Then I got my share. House made some friends and I was fine. You know I'm moving back to. Sydney as I. Said I had my partner. But it it was very isolating for. Awhile and then moving here moving. Here last year. I was I was fine about when we. Moved into this apartment we finally like unpacked our suitcases. And it suddenly stopped. Feeling like a holiday and I was like, oh God.
Akanksha
What have I done?
Kris
It's OK. I think once we know where the supermarket. Is. You know you've got a little bit of like you understand a little bit about what the rhythm of your life.
Akanksha
I like it. Routine starts coming back into play. So what was the next? Job after the whole little hastily took.
Kris
Well. I had moved beyond just doing HTML and JavaScript. Front end to doing a bit of PHP. Mainly because I started blogging. When I was in London. Blogging was taken into the. Heydayofthe.com movement, so blogging was taking off. So I was one of the early bloggers and my blog is still technically. Going you know 20. Some years later, I don't update as much, but. Back in the. Day like I was. Using Blogger. Which then got. Bought by Google. Becameblogger.com but Blogger was slow and I started. To get annoyed. With some of the features inside decided. To write my own. And so that's when I got into PHP and my partner obviously is a developer as. Well, he was. More on the back end side of. Things so he was like. Oh, I think. This language just might be the one you would like. And sort of pushing. Me in that direction and. So I've been doing PHP. So my first job in. Australia, I went and worked for. Epson. Out. In North Ryde the computer. Printer people I got a job as a PHP developer. 'cause they were. Building out some websites. The creative corner. And and the idea. Was to like provide obviously support like support information and docs for Epson but also like. Stuff that people could.
Akanksha
Print out.
Kris
You know using more ink? So you know I. Was like designing designing content like coloring, finding coloring pages. And crossword puzzles and things for kids. 'cause we felt like a kids. Section and so writing. PHP Yeah so I did. I did that. For a little while. I would say another year or two. Of doing doing. PHP development in web development. And I got burnt out I.
Akanksha
Felt.
Kris
Burnt. Out. And. I talk about this a lot. But I think it. Hits people in the industry like between the. Thethe.com crash and boom and. Crash and moving to. Australia and getting this job and doing this. I suddenly looked around and always. What are you? Creating all the websites you created or gone, you're creating content deliberately so people use it more printer ink. Is that really making the world a better place? Like I just felt I kind of looked around and. Realized I didn't, I didn't. Like what I was. Doing I was not feeling very fulfilled. By it and. I quit, I didn't have a plan I. Was like I. Can't do. I can't do it anymore. And so I. Quit and I went into Morris. And sons the craft store. 'cause I buy then that you know I was a regular customer. I've done a few courses. There I went in and I said hi, I've just. Quit my job. Do you? Do you need? Anybody like can you hot will you hire me and Albert? Morris who's a lovely man did. He hired me and I left the tech industry and went and worked retail for. 3. Years.
Akanksha
I absolutely love that. And you know why? This is like a recent. Meme and I think. It's a 21 2020, one thing where there's a spike ohmygod congratulating your friends more on the fact that they're quitting their jobs and getting. A new one. I'm just like I. Love that style often so I sound. So good for you and I'm like. Yeah. Chris, I love it.
Kris
Spiritually, I felt so. Happy. And I. Mean. I don't. Sugarcoat. It like people. Think we're getting at a craft store is. Like you know a. Dream no. It's. Hard. Work. Like standing all day when you. Have been this like you know. Feels like pampered IT person. With like. Fancy chairs and stuff. I was like by the end of. Day one, I was like my legs. Are dying what is happening? I had to go buy like orthopedic shoes. So I could. Stand. All day long like. You can't wear your. Chucks sneakers when you're. Standing. All day long you know I vacuum. The. Floor. I I helped. Customers. And. Like I got to the end of the. First week and I'm like I've taken a. 50% pay. Cut to come. Work here, have I made a huge mistake, you know? But I was helping people. Make. Things. You know? They were I was. Knitting, I'd learn to knit. I think through a course. At. Their kids learn to knit book but then. Also I did. Some classes with them I was helping people. Net I was I was working. Really hard, but I actually. Felt like I was earning. My money more than I had. Is like a tech person. I just loved it. I I really did and Albert his family became really just wonderful friends of ours. I was there through the rebrand when they rebranded as Morris and. Sons and I actually was like your website sucks. Can I help with that? Because and what I discovered was it wasn't the tech industry that I had a problem with. It was what I work on and so by by working with them by getting to talk directly to our customers by like. Being you know as a customer. What I would really love is a wish list. So I could. Put what I want and then my family could. Order things from you. So I built that. Of. Like and this was early days in Australia. Like I remember. Calling up the different Australian wool companies and being like hi, I'm. Building out a comprehensive online shopping catalog of wool. Can you send me digital? Files of you know your patterns. So that people can order them. Why do you want? That was very suspicious. Why do you want? That now we don't want people that that seems. You know, I don't want people downloading our stuff. In it, no. I'm trying to. Sell yourself idiots like. And it was just so.
Akanksha
Fun.
Kris
To solve that problem, to do it in a. Family. Business where I could? See. The impact. That was. Having to be able to, you know. And of course, as I started doing more and. More of the Web stuff II basically moved into the management team. I started helping to roster people I was helping do the you know do the the finances and make the bank. Runs and stuff like. That and I I. Just loved it being part of like the strategy. What are we gonna? Do three sales this year or two. Are going to make this one classy or we gonna have? Sprinklers on every street corner you know and like helping to run. A business and seeing the impact, I think in. Techwear often. Very. Divorced from the people who are actually. Using our services and I could have. People come in and actually tell. Me what they thought about their? Website It was. So. Amazing. And I I loved it I. I think in many. Ways like if. When I if and when I ever retire. I will probably. Go back to. Doing something like that like his ideal. The only. Problem. With. It is that. I. Knew in the Best Buy in mind all the time. In tech it could be making twice as much money. And the only reason I could. Afford to do that in Sydney is. Because my partner was still working. Attack. If we were, if we were both.
Akanksha
If he hadn't been.
Kris
I couldn't have. Afforded to do it. And by that. Time, you know we started thinking. About maybe we should. Start. Looking at saving up and buying a house. And I wasn't going to do that, but. Then I think I was making about 40,000 Australian by that time, which was probably I was probably 1. Of the better paid people. He was paying. Me as much as he could like the margins. In Crest or not. Big and I was like. I'm gonna. Have to. Quit. I'm gonna have to quit and go back to tech. Just just so I. Can buy a house in Sydney. Honestly, that was the only.
Akanksha
Reason yeah, like it's. Just. I, I mean the whole part of like the customers input and stuff like I mean in consulting speaks acting like. I mean I'm. Literally begging for my. End users. To be like. Tell me what you want to see in front of you so I can. Build it for you and then you don't complain. That you can see it like, I'm yeah.
Kris
It makes such.
Akanksha
A big difference. When you get the end people, things like this is what I want. My thank you, tell me I'll do it like the same things like cooking dinner around like tell me what you want to eat and I will go make those. Instead of yeah. Whatever you want to make, I'll eat it, I'm like. No, don't do that. Don't do that to me like I hate it, Bob. I love that and I think. It's yeah. Yeah God, sorry that does sound. I don't like. I don't mean if you do open up and retire in like a Chris I will be there in a few years.
Kris
Well, 'cause my mom did. It so she when. She finally retired from tax. You know she was building. She ended up. She started building websites for like small. Businesses. Out in Indiana where we live. She was this admin. She did all this stuff. And then when she retired, she bought a. Quilting shop and she. Is running their. Facebook page and she's teaching classes and she servicing these computerized longarm closing machines so she's still kind attack but she she's running the quilting shop she's living the dream.
Akanksha
That's 5050 lofted here. Oh this is great. Maybe you should get her onto it to its. Own size I love it. Oh
Kris
she'd be amazing for you to talk to. Yeah, absolutely.
Akanksha
Right, so you're moving back into the tech world.
Kris
Yep.
Akanksha
And.
Kris
So yeah, we can fast. Forward a bit through. There, but yeah, I I did a bunch of interviewing I had. Actually went up several rounds with with. The. Big G with. Google. 'cause they were in. They were in Sydney then at the time didn't get through. Which was disappointing. But I did end up. Getting a PHP. Developer job. And I just. Remember that one 'cause I was coming. Yeah, I've been doing it. I've been using I've been. Building the shop. Website and everything, so it's not like I haven't done. Any tax for three years? It was just stuff that I believed in and was passionate about. And I remember going to this interview in north. Sydney and the guy being like. Define. Polymorphism and I was like no clue no no. And I think that's where did it, because I think I. Was honest and he I remember him laughing and again. We're still mates to this day. But I didn't know him being like. Afterwards, like, why did you hire me? He was like you. Were the only. One that was. Honestly, like the stuff I knew I was good at, I said I was good. At and the. Stuff was crap. I. You know 'cause they had you self. Rate on different areas. And I was like HTML, PHP. I'm pretty good at those. You know it was like. You know databases. Algorithms? Is like 1. Star.
Akanksha
You know?
Kris
You're like? Wow. OK. Most dudes wreck Dec four and five stars for. Everything. I'm like well. I want to work for you if you could. Expect me to do that and. Yeah, so I got back into into. Tech as a PHP. Developer, I did that at. A few different companies and then so is that this one in North Sydney and. It wasn't. OK job we were. Doing like SMS premium SMS. Which was. Like not soul fulfilling, you know, like people texting to get their horoscopes or a ring tone. And but we built, you know. Websites we built the back end services. To connect to. The carriers like it was from a technical standpoint, interesting. Work. It was not like I had no illusions were making the. World a better place but hey. I had a mortgage. By that time. And I remember. Coming in one. Day. And. Talking to this girl in EU. S who was also in our. Team and she's like. There's rumors there's gonna be layoffs, and I. Wait wait what? And just then I got the tap on the. Shoulder and hey Chris.
Akanksha
Could you come join us in the.
Kris
Conference room and I was like. Can I curse?
Akanksha
On this podcast today would you go for it?
Kris
I was like. Oh ****.
Akanksha
And so I go into conference.
Kris
Room and there's like. 40 or 50. Orders in. There and I remember looking around for a. Moment this wild moment I was like. Yeah, I mean the good group. Maybe this.
Akanksha
Is the group. Who are?
Kris
Saying and then I looked around and I went. No, these are the people I would. Get rid of. Wraps and so yes, they they were basically winding. Up like. They were in the course. Of winding up in Australia, they. Like got rid of like 50. Percent of the staff. That day, so I'm. Standing there I was like, Yep, go for it. Give me the package. Whatever, and I remember. UM? As soon as I. Got I got out I messaged. Him like Yep. It was me. I got the. Sack and I. I went up. The street to the craft store to my friends at the craft store and I'm like, can I borrow your computer for? Just a minute. And I went on to one of my crafting. Message. Boards and I was like. Yep, just got the sax. Anybody's got any? Jobs. Please send them. Through I'm going to the. Pub and to my girlfriends who went to the pub. And just proceeded to drink our faces. Off on sangria. And. I got a call. From someone who's. Seen my message. Who had worked? With in the. Industry. And. Was like. 'cause by that? Time. On my. Team as a. Developer, I really thought the writing of the code was not the bit that I really loved the most we started. We were working on as my first time really working in an agile way. My team we we were doing weekly showcases and I kind of took the lead on those because the other guys didn't like talking so I would show off what we built. I wrote documentation for our users because they didn't want to do it and I felt it was needed. I actually went and ran a training ran. Training in RLA office for. Our team, so I've been kind of doing. More of that. And I told him I was like. Yeah, I was thinking of. I. I hear that there's this. Job. Where I can do more of like? That unless of the writing code. That's what I want to do, and he's. Like, well, we've been thinking. About we need like a business. Analyst? Do you think he? Could do that? And I was like. Yeah, maybe he's. There all right? Well if it doesn't work out. You can always, I know you can always you know. Write. Code so I went like 24. Hours later hung. Over the dog. I went in for the interview and I I had the job as a business analyst and I did that for three years. For them. I I wrote spec documents, requirements, documents for all their new projects. I worked very closely with the dev team we defined we were. We weren't doing. Continuous deployment back then it was still very much like waterfall development. Where we had. Checkpoints along the way, but I hope. Got to. I. Got to help. Define that. Process. And I left it you. Know getting to go to. Cut so I started going to customer. Meetings. With one of the sales people as like as like the technical person, and so I'd be sitting at the table and she'd be doing the sales pitch and you're sitting at the table that always be some like architect you know, and you have to drop some of your credentials so that they would respect you and know that you actually know what you're talking about. And. And so that 'cause I know it's that's a transition. A lot of people. Reached out to me. Going you know I wanna. Be. Like a a BA. Or a scrum master or product manager, but. Like you can't get that. Job, unless you've had that job. Like I feel like I. Found a little bit of a back door 'cause I found someone. Who who knew me well? Enough to trust me to give me that opening to prove myself and I was able to do it. So that was the big transition away from being a hands on coder.
Akanksha
Oh, I love that. I think I mean what's? Really stand out to me at. Least is like that really, kind of. Trying to find that balance of like what look, let's be. Realistic, I need a job and I need to pay my mortgage. Is and it's. Very realistic point point of view for alive. But then also like. How do I find work that is fulfilling those not just as like interesting is technically like? Yes, this is actually keeping. My brain going. And also I'm like, hey, I'm doing something and finding for me like I I'm I'm obsessed like I'm loving the career that you've had so far.
Kris
See I I. Was a BA for many years after. That in different companies. Like I was at a digital. Agency in down in the rocks.
Akanksha
Working very cool funky.
Kris
Little digital agency. I also did come that. Was the 2nd. Time I got laid off. Because I think people don't talk about. That I was like, no, I've had two different redundancies, that was. Because you know, they. Missed out when you're in a small company they missed out on a couple of big deals they can't afford to keep you anymore. I ended up I was. Doing a course by. That that's another way that I've got. Good jobs, I should just say. That, like I've had a lot of jobs. In Sydney, very few of them did I get excuse me by applying to a job opening. Most of them were through my network and so I had been. Doing A to get the. BA certification you know there's? That I I be a. Certification for I know, maybe I'll do a search. I don't know, maybe. That'll help me like with my career or. Something. So I started. Doing a. Course to do that. And I met some really lovely people and then when I got laid off, one of them was like, oh, we're hiring at one of the big. Banks. Do you wanna come? And I was like I don't. Think I want to. Work for a big. Bank. Right? By that I was like I'll. Give it a go give. It ago, so I've got a technical. BA role at one of the big. Banks I had to go buy all fancy.
Akanksha
Gyms close.
Kris
'cause I never worked in like a. Corporate office, you know? I was like I just wear like. Hoodies and jeans. So I went, bought all new clothes. And I. Hated it. I. Hated it. Like I don't wanna. Fill up the company like. They were great, lots of training, interesting projects I was in. The team I was. Doing like I was. Writing like spec and working with the. Team on like Back End server refreshes. Where like? The. The definition of success is no one notices. We changed anything. I can't get excited.
Akanksha
About that
Kris
it's just not for me that that's not. The kind of project that. Gets.
Akanksha
Inspection.
Kris
From and. So I was like calling my girlfriend. Every day being like Get Me Out of here. Get Me Out of here. And one of. Them. Was like, yeah? I have a role. Going at my company and I think. You'd be great for it. Let me. Refer. You I ended up doing that. By convention, that one of course I. I basically worked. At MI9, which? Was Channel 9's joint venture. With Microsoft, yes, she's like we need like a. A scrum master. Kind of, you know, be a. Delivery person and the one thing I do want to call out about this transition. 'cause this was in terms of. Salary this was a big jump. For me, and it was entirely. Based on my friend. Because when they were like when the recruiter was like. OK, how much money do you? Want my friend? Called me up. She's like they. Were just gonna ask you how much. Money do you want? And I was like. OK, well you know like the most. I'd made up to that point was. Like 80,000.
Akanksha
Australian.
Kris
And so I. Was thinking like maybe like 90 and she goes Chris as your friend asked for 110. And I was like. Oh my.
Akanksha
God, that's a lot of money.
Kris
I was like but because I would never. Have gone for that much. And she was like I'm just. Telling you ask for that. And I did and they gave it to. Me. And I'm like I because. A lot of people like how? Do you? How do you make those big? Jumps, it's it's because someone. Told. Me, I'd never negotiated. And my whole career even back when my that first job in London, my husband was making by the time we left 5 or 6000 pounds a year more than me solely because he. Negotiated when he came in and I. Hadn't. I was just so excited. Someone to hire me for that so you. Kidding, I wasn't. Gonna ask for more money and so that's something I do. Now with young. People and head coach them, I ask.
Akanksha
Ask them for.
Kris
Money. When they asked when they asked. You you've got him on the hook.
Akanksha
For more money.
Kris
And so very thank you. Jody, that that was it was massive in terms of my career. Because it it has an. Impact, you know when you got a new job and they ask you? That will be. Based on your last. Salary. So ask for more. I'm thinking about it like any.
Akanksha
I like the famous like ask for more money, but I think it's also just to the people out there who like in listening and they have the power to be like sharing it to someone like I mean for the last job. Yeah, I'm sorry I had so many people like OK this is. What I'm on? This is what the number is usually on the company like figure out where you want to fit in there. Ask for whatever you. Want and I absolutely know. Briefly, I mean glass door and all these kind of things exist and it's like yes you can.
Kris
Do your research.
Akanksha
But that research goes only. So far, let's be very real, like real numbers. Are hard to fine. Unless someone talks to you and you're like. This is reasonable. You deserve more. So. Far as I can make such. A better friends. It's an.
Kris
Uncomfortable. Conversation it is. I get that yeah and. And even with like some of my friends. Now in Sydney. We II helped run the Sydney Technology User Group and I remember we had a breakfast meet up pre COVID just before pre COVID. And we were going to do a. Whole meet up around. Salaries and we kind of looked around the table. The four of us and went well, I'll. Say if you'll say. And you know, and. We shared our numbers that we've never done that before. And it was like I. Opening the range. And I think maybe for one or two of them. It was like. I need to be asking.
Akanksha
For more money, yeah.
Kris
So yeah, share share that information.
Akanksha
It makes perfect. Difference in people's lives like? Such a big difference, but yeah. Those are tangent.
Kris
Ah, well, but so so. Channel line is where I made the next. Big transition into being into people management. 'cause then we're channel. 9 IPO did I mean they? Basically bought it out from Microsoft. So it became fully now it's 9 digital so I still got lots of made to work there. So now it's nine digital. Oh yeah, I was. There, when it was a bit more sort. Of start up being independent and now. It's it's. It's actually is. Because we built like my team we built. The jump in app which was now it's denied. Now app, it's there like live. TV streaming app we built that.
Akanksha
I got my love island fix on that every other weekend. I love it.
Kris
I was working on the. Team and you know we would go into the Office for State of Origin and we don't get pizza. Because we were there. You know we built like this live polling app for Big Brother, which I remember being really excited about. Like like you know we built this app and we were gonna have thousands of people dialing.
Akanksha
In like like.
Kris
You know? Gretel Killeen was going to mention.
Akanksha
Other thing online. TV or whoever it was.
Kris
And. So it was. Fun and then we had a. Big restructure and a bunch of people left. And one of the. Way that a woman who got. Promoted to be the you know that she took over as. The head of the tech team. And. She called me and she's like I want to promote you to lead the. Whole. TV development team and I was like what? I'd never managed a team before. I'd never had direct reports. Before I, I didn't know what. Cap ex or op ex. Was. I didn't know how to. Approve. Anyone's.
Akanksha
Expenses.
Kris
And she was like, no, I think you'd be good at it. I want you to do it. You know the team. You know everyone and it was. I went to. Lunch with my husband to think about. It and it was, as you said, do. The scary thing? I was like. OK, you know I can do it. I can do anything. I can put up with. Anything for a year? So I took it. On it was a. Steep learning curve. I've given a talk about this. I gave a talk at ya. Perth a few years ago which is on YouTube called. Taking the management leap, which is everything. I had to learn. To be a manager. You know how to. Run a one on one with. Someone where you're not just sitting there going. There you go.
Akanksha
Yeah.
Kris
You know? Like
Akanksha
how to have?
Kris
Like it's still my biggest growth area is how to have like the challenging conversations how to give someone critical feedback like I tend to fall into. You know, the the ruinous empathy as opposed to radical candor. You know way? Like no, I need to tell you that. You're doing this. Wrong. As opposed.
Akanksha
To maybe?
Kris
'cause?
Akanksha
You I like you I.
Kris
Love you, but like could you just? Do it like that. Like no, I needed not.
Akanksha
Be like that.
Kris
I still struggle with that. But I learned to hate. You know, and I think also. I learned a lot about our. Business. You know 'cause? We built websites. And people put ads on them and I didn't quite. Understand. How money actually we got money. So I went to like the. Accounting. Team and I. Look at finance team was like explain to me like I'm five how our business.
Akanksha
Makes money.
Kris
And, and so I learned about the advertising business. Like I, I just learned a. Lot. I built a lot of I started doing a leadership that's my other big tip. If you want to go into people management. Is they had like? A. Uh. A potential leaders training. Course. And I got fast tracked into it. 'cause I was actually. Being a leader now. And. And I got to I got some. External coaches to give me feedback. On areas of blind. Spots. I made some. Good. Connections with other. People in the company. Who were doing that transition as? Well and you know. We still I one of them. I still exchange emails with and we still would catch up for lunch. Back in Sydney so. Hope you can get. Access to any sort of leadership program like that do it. Even if you. You don't think you necessarily want to be a leader because the stuff you learn will be useful in whatever job.
Akanksha
You're in, yeah, I think something like sorry just listen to those I mean I'm going to be doing a. Leadership course, thanks for two weeks. I'll anyway and I'm like, oh just exciting. I'm like it worked out really well, like great advice. Dump it in autumn, oh so.
Kris
Good, even stupid things like doing you're. Doing you're like? Myers Briggs and stuff like that, you know? It's all nonsense. But the same. Time you're like. I'm thinking about myself. I think about my. Strengths? Like it's really good to do.
Akanksha
It. Works, I like it and I think I mean. Something else, OK, no you. Mentioned like a lot of jobs. Work from your network and stuff. I mean network is important. Networking is important stuff, right? But what? Really stands out is like. The fact that you make. Such an effort of like reaching out and trying to. Understand. The business, that's everything that's around you and like it's not just like hey, I met this person at a meet up and I call them for a job like this is very much like building relationships, which is a very different thing to just networking like there is. I feel like there's a very distinct divide. Subs. Well, I think I think.
Kris
People think networking. Is a bit of a. It's like a. Cheat. Code and they're like. Oh yeah, you know it's like, oh you. You didn't. It's like, that's what? Salespeople do, or something like that, and. Yeah. By this point in my career I. Actually it was. I was probably. I think it was like. 22,000 I can try. To go back on my blog. But I was. In Sydney, for a good like 10 years. Before. Somehow I discovered girl geeks. In me. It was called grocki. Dinners back then it was an offshoot of this, you know, International Group and the idea was to get women in tech together have dinner. Every now and then. And I thought that they would. They were doing an event. I think it was at Google's offices. There. And I didn't want to go by. Myself 'cause I was. Still very nervous was earlier in my career. And I took. Two girlfriends with me. And. I for the. First. Time. In my life was in a room of 70 women. And tech and I was. Talking to a guy. About this recently one of my colleagues here at Amazon. Lovely guy. He was like Chris, wait, why? Do they need to have women? Only events explained to me because you know, I do understand and I was like look, I get it you. You've got the. Privilege of not understanding why we do that. I was always. The only girl on the team. You know, and to be in a room and look around. And it was. All women who look like me who are in this industry talking about technical things. I had never experienced. That in like 30 years. And it was. So amazing and so I started. I got really. Involved in girl. Gates I gave my first tech talk I talked about. Nerdy knitting. Looking at Google I. Did. And the great thing is. Once my mom visited from Australia. From the US, which is a long. Way, and it happened to coincide. With a girl. Takes where I was giving my talk. And said she got to come. To. Google and see her daughter give a talk. At a geek girl geek. Meet up and it was like like gold. So happy. And. And so yeah, that was. What started me got me. Started on like. Giving meet up talks and stuff. 'cause like I said I did. Speaking in theater. But then I went. Into tag, so I haven't really. Used it other than like giving you know product demonstrations. And. So I started. Doing more meet up talks and getting involved in helping to organize girl geeks. You know we did the Seahawks hackathons every year and I was involved in that. And yeah, I I think when you build out your network, you do it without the expectation that you're going to leverage it. Someday you know, you're you're just. You're just being a nice person and making. Friends and helping. People. Like not make. The same mistakes you. Did. And the great thing is that when you do, when you are in trouble, what you usually find is your network. Will be there for you.
Akanksha
Yeah. And I think especially it's like if that is what you're. Going in there. With it's quite different like it, it's very easy. And clear to. Tell. When people are coming. In but like hey, get me a job. Or like, hey, I.
Kris
Yeah.
Akanksha
I'm here and I gotta be here and. I'd like the. Community that this is it. You know it's not. Necessarily. Like a conscious thing of. That's what you're doing. It's just nice. And it fits in and it works. Yeah, and so.
Kris
Channel 9 was fun I I learned a lot about. Running a team. UM? But honestly. TV. I I kind of realized. At that point, I was like, alright, I've done TV. I don't want to work in. Advertising supported anymore like I, I just. That's not scratching that little itch or my. Soul. So I need to. Move on and I ended up with two. Different. Opportunities in front of me. One was. A. Company in in Sydney that was going to pay. Me a lot. Of money to be their head of product. And I went in and the you know the. Interview was like. Design if we were going to build a section to sell. X How would you? Do that and I was like. I've done e-commerce honey. I can tell you. So you know. And I was. Like I could nail this job, it's ahead of job. Like if I want to go down the road like this is a good one. The other opportunity was for half the money. But it was for a little. Sydney. Startup. Called. Canva and I went to their offices in Surry Hills, and actually, that's actually no. They weren't even advertising. I went to a meet up in an alley and Sidney between Dropbox in Canada, and I saw Campbell founder cliffs fake. And I'm like, wow, this company sounds really cool. I should look into them. I looked him up and they weren't offering any. They were only having tech jobs at that point and I was no more a hands on coder. I was like, I'm not gonna get hired as a developer. But I emailed. Cliff, and as I guess I speak, I I really. I think you know I. Have a lot to offer and. And and he's been. Emailing my husband actually 'cause they were trying to poach any toner. That could get in. Sydney at that time. And I was like you're. Chasing the wrong person. I said, well, why don't you come? In and and have a cup of coffee. And we'll hear. About you, then. And so I talked my way into a job at Camba as their first sort of non their first non coder member of the tech team. Basically I think my job title was like all rounder. But you say it was. I had those. Two options and. I remember really agonizing over it like. Should I say? Go Canva like it's more fun and. Surry. Hills, they have a shampoo. Instagram every day like versus this job, which is like a bit more, seems like more of like a great career direction. And. But Campbell were like I was like, you know. What I mean, I literally was up at night making pros cons. List. And I was I. Literally just at one point, Google how to. Make a. Decision. And and I saw some. Advice that was like if you're really. Agonizing, the good news is it probably doesn't. Make that much of a difference. One way or the other. So I was like alright. I'm going to go with Canva. It just it was a gut. Feel I went. With Canva he said, it was a big pay cut. I even tried to negotiate, I pushed. 'cause I've learned that. Lesson trying to go **** there's. Small. Startup they cannot match. So my salary went backwards for the first. Time in my. Career, but I was willing to do it. And and I loved. The team I pitched in ID. You know we were launching Canva for. Work. At one point I was like riding their email campaigns. I was like whatever I can do to add value here and. Then I kind of started. As we started branching out into the whole like we were like 40 people at that point. And then we. Started breaking into teams working on separate. Things and I was like alright. Somebody needs to kind of be. Across what everybody is doing to make sure like we're very flat structure, but like. I just wanna make sure that this team is. Gonna break something like that teams depending on and so I kind of. I started taking responsibility for when we did our releases of making sure everybody in the company knew what was in the release. At one point I went to Mel. And I was like. I think we. Should hire some. QA people. And she was like. Really 'cause? Our testing at that point, you know early. Days of a startup. Is literally everybody stop work for 30 minutes.
Akanksha
Drawing.
Kris
And I was like no. I've managed. QA people before I think I know. What to how to? Hire them, and so she trusts me. So I hired the first two QA people to lovely guys in Manila. We brought them over to Sydney so I could sit with them and we trained. Together and worked out. One of them was gonna do the apps. Was going to build the. Website We worked our testing. Plans. It was. So much. Fun. I really loved it and. You know we we were. Like it was, they were going up. People were getting very. Excited, you know and now. There's a lot of hype around Canva. And I. Remember at the time. A lot of the young. People in the company I was I. Was more of a minority. Being over 30 then I was. Being a little. Bit at Canbe everyone was.
Akanksha
So. Young.
Kris
Arrow so young. But I was like I've. Been. Through this in 99 two. Thousands like I'm here because I want to be here. I believe in the product. I don't care if I don't get rich like I'm. Lucky enough that my partner, can you know I've got. A. Very very. Fortunate in that. Respect that I could take that not everyone could have could have done that. And yeah, so I was a camera for a good year and a half of learned a ton and I I'm still I. I go over there and have lunch while used to come. In Surrey Hills and I just love the team there. Their they're the best and and I was at there at kind of an inflection. Point where they. Went as I said from one team working on. One thing to being many teams working on many things and so a lot of this stuff. You know that I was working on with him of like trying to get our release cycles down of and. Introducing more rigor into our testing process. They've now. Just like really embraced that. And it's great to see some of the seeds that I got to help plant. I really paying off for them now so love the canvas guys.
Akanksha
This is so interesting to hear. Especially. So what, what are my? Best friends here Sam, he actually works like on vinyl like he started at this episode. Of the area, so it's interesting. Oh nice. Hearing how like how his machines and stuff work, right? Like I. Hear I came in a team it's.
Kris
Very different.
Akanksha
Even he talks about his QA like he talks. About all the things that you basically helped set off. So it's a really. Interesting, you know. I think to this where I'm like, Oh my God, this is like two worlds. Combining and how everything kind of. Built into its place. It's. Very cool.
Kris
Yeah, and I I loved.
Akanksha
Canva you know, I could have.
Kris
Stayed. There. And and. I guess I kind of realized working in a small. Company is good you kids. Where, where different hats and have different. Opportunities, but I I had by that point had been. Invited to do some tech. Conferences and so I. Got to meet. Dave Thomas who? Ran Yao conference, which many people in Australia will know. Yeah yeah. Did tech conferences around Australia and Dave. Was looking for someone to help. It. Was really the role was around community and at that time I was. I was hoping to run Sydney Tech leaders. You know I would have still heavily involved in girl. Jake has gone a lot to meet UPS and I was like. Wow, someone wants to pay. Me. To. Focus on the stuff that is my. Hobby? Are you kidding me like? And and I remember. Also, one day was like how much money would you want to come work for me. And I was like. And so I did that. I reached out to some people. Who are like I was like? The closest. Thing I guess would be like an evangelist. Role. And so I was on glass. Door I had a couple people in Sydney who were lovely. Like I remember meeting. Applejack Skinner, who's great developer Jack, who gave me some guidance and I told Dave. I gave him a number. That was. 50 percent more than I was. Getting a canvas and he went. Yeah, cool, you're worth. It I was like. This guy believes in me like he trusts me and believes that I can. The value I can add to yellow, so I did that was it was a hard decision to make to leave Canada. Like I I. I am very happy to see them succeed and I'm. You know their numbers keep going up and. Yeah. I will be very happy they're the people who. Who are their? Deserved to be rewarded for all the. Blood, sweat and tears. They put into. I'm so happy. To have been a tiny, tiny part of it. But yeah went mercy yeah, which is probably. You know that put me on the. Road to meeting.
Akanksha
You
Kris
because I started going all over Australia and doing. Events of like my. Job was. Going to I. Went to like three to five. Meet up so weak I really just met people all around Australia and started doing bigger conferences. And you know we went to Asia. And doing stuff. There. And it was just. Ah. Loved. It oh. It's what I would do. It again, that's probably also. That's my other retirement. Like you know well. This is saying no one knows what's gonna. Happen with tech conferences anymore, but it was it.
Akanksha
Was fun while it last. Year because. In Michelle's life, right? Like I think, think I had a similar enough. Roll for awhile. Yellow God.
Kris
So Michelle took the yellow. Ribbon I
Akanksha
like. I feel like. I'm better with the change. But I couldn't tell for sure sounds. Like it might have been if. You've got like every time I met him like. It's just this. Is this the ideal job? Like is this what I want, yes.
Kris
So I got to meet. Michelle, as part of the Melbourne texting like love her. She's she's a good. Mate of mine. And dumb. You know, like I. Was. Very happy at Yale like I loved you out. And then out of the blue one day, Amazon. Called. And they were like. Oh yeah, someone told us to. Reach out to it was. Like yeah, right? Sure they did your recruiter. You know, and they're like, oh, Frank Arrigo, let me. Oh frank. Everybody knows Frank. It I was like. Yeah, Frank said you'd be really good. For this one I knew. Frank had gone to. Work for a WS. And it turned out that the role was basically. Being Frank counterpart in Sydney. Of managing a team of solutions architects. And I was like, look I've I've. Been up with. You know with. Google a couple times at that point, like I've just accepted, I'm not going to work for any of those big companies. I don't wanna. Work for any of.
Akanksha
These big companies.
Kris
I'm very happy you know, and so I I. Deliberately was like. I'm not going to allow. Myself to even get interested in. This I was like alright so. You know what would I be doing? I've got Bennis solutions architects. Why would you want to hire me to manage? A team of solutions. Architects. And the recruiter was like. Well. Well, we don't have any. Women to be honest with you doing that role and most of the people who are doing the role came up from being solutions architects and we've kind of realized that that means that we all solve problems in the same way we all think about things in the same. Way and we. Need. To start thinking about things differently and your profile looks really interesting, it aligns to some of what we think we need in the team. And when I talk to you and I was. Like
Akanksha
it's the ideal page for all, I like it.
Kris
I was like. He's like, yeah. You'd be a groundbreaker. You'd be the first. One another you did your homework. You knew how appealing. That would be to me. And so yeah, I went in. And I interviewed with him, but again. I was like. I'm I'm. Very. Happy in my role, I don't. Need to leave I'm. I think that's the ideal time. Obviously the ideal. Time would like to talk to someone about. Girls when you don't need. To go 'cause I was like, you know, maybe it was like I projected an air of like. I don't need you. And. So that made them want me I. Don't know, but I was like, yeah, whatever. And then they yeah, they may be an offer and. Again, I really I honestly made myself like. Sick over that? Decision. 'cause I was like. What am I doing walking away from? A role that I love. And I remember. Feeding. Michelle and talking to her about it, and I was like, I'm I. Stupid. Am I doing this? I'm like like what? Do you wanna do my role? She's like? Oh God, yes. And I was like.
Akanksha
Hang on a.
Kris
Second to do so, you to. Someone and so honestly getting Michelle in. There was one of the things that. Allowed. Me to like. If. Because I was like. It's gonna be in good. Hands all this stuff we've done to build. Michelle's just gonna make it even. Better.
Akanksha
And so I was.
Kris
Very, very happy to see. I remember for the. First six months she would keep texting. Me being like people keep. Saying, oh, you're the new Chris.
Akanksha
Oh my God, that's terrible. No, Michelle was.
Kris
Amazing Michelle skip friend. She brings different things to it and I was so happy. That's the cheese.
Akanksha
Just seeing everything that they've done.
Kris
But yeah, I, I and Amazon was scary. I think I. Had a little bit of that like. I don't, I don't know. That you know my companies. I've worked companies. Accused a WS I was. Familiar with it? I played with it a little. Bit myself, but I'm like, Oh my. God can I do? This role like. Do the things that scare you. And. I have been. There more than three years now.
Akanksha
Adam mean you've. Now moved to Munich. And everything is kind of like it's another big. Career. Jump. That way. In terms of yes. Let's move again.
Kris
Yeah. Well, that was yeah. I mean, uh, I was. Very happy with the team in Sydney and everything, but we had at this. January 2020. No Sir. Before that November 2019, I got invited to speak at my first European. Tech conference had never done that. Before I was like. Who is international? Now so came over. To Vilnius, Lithuania and Kiev, Ukraine, and Rod came with me. That's his let his retirement. Dream is to. Carry my luggage. When I dressed, take him around the. World. And we like we have.
Akanksha
Three days at the end of.
Kris
This trip, let's let's go somewhere. We've never been on vacation, and we picked Munich. And we're like, oh. It's fun, we had a lovely dinner. We took a train across Germany. Everything is green. Like it was just really nice. And then we got. Back to straighten. That was the. Summer of 2019-2020. We got back and it was 40. Degrees and everything was on fire in New South. Wales that was the Bush fire. Season Sydney was choked with smoke, people were. Wearing N 95 masks. And I'm sitting there like thinking back to like. Green fields of Germany. I was like damn. We started joking. About it, like wouldn't be funny to like. Move to Europe for awhile. Wouldn't it be? Funny. Ha ha ha. And then in January. I did go to. To the US for a big conference January. 2020 the last big travel before Kovid and I was sitting in Chicago in a snowstorm. Trying to get home. To to Australia and I started. Idly searching the Amazon jobs portal for jobs in Germany and I realized Oh my God, there's a developer relations job going in Munich, and I messaged Rod. And I was like, I know. This you know we. Were kind of just joking, but like, would you be interested in moving to Germany and his response? Bless him was I'm installing do. Over. Right now.
Akanksha
And I was like. 'cause you know I.
Kris
Spoke a little bit. I had done a summer program in high school so I spoke a little bit of German but. Like I didn't. Use it in like 25.
Akanksha
Years.
Kris
And so. Did Trump did the interviews and everything remotely? As COVID was locking down and so the. Whole. Time last year I was like at any moment this. They're just gonna be like sorry Chris, too hard you know well. We'll just, we'll just go with. Someone here locally because like. The embassies were closed so. Once I got the job. Offer we. Couldn't get a visa. Until like June or July, when the German Embassy opened back up in Australia. So it was just weird to. Apply for that exemption to leave. Australia. You know I had to get all the documents. Together and everything it was really so. Pack up our house. One of our cats, unfortunately passed away during the COVID lockdown, which was really heartbreaking, and. It was. Just last year with tough or no.
Akanksha
God this. Is.
Kris
Yes, it was like it was early last year. Last year I.
Akanksha
Spent more.
Kris
Than a year now. It was tough and finally it all came together and we left at the end of August. So one year I've been in my team here one year now and we spent. Said about five or five. Months over winter and locked down here in Germany which wasn't. Great. But things this. Summer have been really good.
Akanksha
Very. Glad for you like a settled in. And this is. I. Am very excited to see where it all leads. And exploit as in. What's the Europe was going to be like? The whole adventure right there? I'm obsessed like honestly, I don't think there's any better.
Kris
She will be back. We're coming back like that's the thing I was always. A. It was always that we're gonna go for a couple years. And then we'll come. Back and it was very convenient we. Both have offices here. It just seems we don't have kids, it's like. Why wouldn't we go like? Why wouldn't? You go and I know. People we're talking about the other night. 'cause I. Met up with another Australian Luke Chadwick. Who's from Victoria? Who worked at? Aria. Many people might know he's in Munich and weeks he's a digital nomad and we caught up for beers just like two nights ago. And we're talking.
Akanksha
And I said, do.
Kris
You feel weird. Like I know. People who, when they're away from their family for three. Weeks are like sobbing messes. And I've got another. Friend Aussie friend who lives in. America, who's always like Oh my God.
Akanksha
So and so send me Tim Tams and Vegemite.
Kris
And I might cry and I don't. I mean not. Gonna I don't I. Don't mean to sound harsh. I don't actively like. Miss. Stuff. Maybe it's 'cause I know I'm. Going back so I'm just like. Embracing we're just embracing the adventure. Like we're here. I have zoom, I can talk to people. Yes I miss. Being able to give people a hug. But I see him again. So why would I be? Sad. Why would I not? Just try and make the best. Of it, and embrace it. And he agreed. That we're both trying to do.
Akanksha
Right Oh my God Chris, I love this. So like I love how the. Fact that you went from.
Kris
I love it here like we might. Talk for 30 minutes like.
Akanksha
Yeah, I thought I cut it, I mean. It wasn't. So flat, and I think I mean. I stuff that. Sort of like I said, the 30 to 40 minutes. It's just like hey look, I don't want you to feel like you have to kind of go. Over the board. But like the conversation goes, I'm here for it like it's like.
Kris
People with a lot of different jobs. And I was like, oh honey, where can I? Go there, I know.
Akanksha
It goes wherever I'm like, it'll be. Fine, but I. Lost like I went from quite literally building McDonald's. The UK. So like all these. Different things and the craft. And like all the little tongue. So in love with their career that you've had, and I love the reasonings behind all the different changes. And decisions, and I'm so glad I. Shared that with those.
Kris
Well, and I don't. Want people to think I planned that? Because at no. Point along that like it's it now, I can look back. And I think it's a good. Skill to develop is to be able to tell your story in a way you know that that makes it into a narrative. But at no. Point along there did I have any? Clue of how. It was going to go like. Each did you have to make decisions in the? Moment what works for you. What works for your. People have different. Family situations completely get like some of the choices I've made, like being able to take less money. Not everyone has that. Luxury 100% understand that so. Being able to have your. Company. Fly you over like I'm an incredibly privileged position. Totally get that, and so that's why I love doing things like this like the thing that makes me feel. Good. Is trying. Not pulling the ladder up behind. You know trying to make. Sure that other people benefit. From that they don't, you know. Yes. You can get sacked. You can make giant career. Changes. You can go working across store for. Awhile to get your head. On if you need to like it's not. Gonna ruin your chances in the industry. Absolutely won't.
Akanksha
I love. Honestly, the best place to leave. That I sleep this off today. I. Go take all the jobs. Do the scary. Thing, and I think that's very perfect way to wrap it up. Like we'll be back again in two weeks. Time with another episode. Until then, take care of yourselves. If you are still in some kind of like terms anywhere, and yeah. Please.
Kris
Australia. I wanna come back. You know, everybody get vaccinated. Let me back in.
Akanksha
Perfect, I'll see you soon then I guess in that case will be back around. In no time at all.
