Ep27: Gretchen & Gwenny

BURNOUT - MENTAL HEALTH - CAREER BREAKS - STARTUPS - DIVERSITY - RETENTION - REDUNDANCY - GOALS - PLANNING

Season 2 is kicking off with a bang! Gretch and Gwenny join us again in a Paths Continued episode wide ranging conversations about the last few years.

The podcast went on a bit of a hiatus after Season 1 as I dealt with burnout and deteriorating mental health. A year later, we are back discussing it all in this episode with a wide range of personal and career journeys over the last few years - an emotional rollercoaster of an episode!

Some main topics discussed in this episode cover burnout, career breaks, navigating personal life changes, redundancies and lots more!

If you would like to listen to Gretch and Gwenny’s solo podcast diving into their full journeys:

If you would like to support the podcast further - check out the support page!

Listen:

Paths Uncovered · Ep 27 - Gretch & Gwenny

Watch:

Read:

Below is the episode transcript. This is automated through YouTube. There is more training and customisation work coming for improved accuracy.

In the meantime please bare with any missing words/grammar/typos - the AI is learning!

Transcript

AM: Welcome back everyone to oh my God the first episode of pattern covered in a very long time I think it's been a year but we've got to call it season two and it's a whole new beginning because that is what life is at the stage so um and I'm really really excited because a this is in person and oh my Lord this hasn't happened in a very long time and I've got people in the room with me and I'm very excited especially even like just right before we click record the energy with being in person and the absolute Giggles that we got because we were sitting in front of an actual setup and everything else like includes it um so I'm really really excited to be able to do this and we're in State Library Victoria which they did ask for a shout out because they've got a lovely studio and we are very very thankful for this place to be sitting here and having these discussions but oh my God we're back and I've got two of my favorite guests that I've had on before gweny and Gretch right in front of me and I'm like oh I'm so happy you guys are here oh look this look and you both dressed up before for the occasion in exactly the matching efforts which has made my day

GW: I'd like everyone to know that we didn't know that our bases were going to be on camera

AM: that is true but oh my God it has been I think by the time this comes out it'll have been an exact year since season one ended quite abruptly I think um so I'm excited to catch up especially with yourselves because it's now been I think about we were just saying about a year and a half since the last time we actually gone and a lot has happened a lot and I know especially for both of you like you have done a lot in the meantime so this is essentially a past continued episode which is perfect because it's a new beginning but also continuing on the seasons so God yeah tell me how has life been who yeah should I go first

GS: in 18 months gosh we just had a quick chat about this and it's terrifying how much changes and I think my my high level what's gone on in the last 18 months is quit my job got divorced and started a company and maybe I should have just gone to therapy

GS: To be fair I have gone to therapy as well

AM: Yeah I was gonna say I feel like you're yeah no you're underselling yourself in terms of everything you've done so far I have been dismissive but it's been um a really challenging but it's super amazing 18 months at the same time I think leaving my job to do something I'm deeply passionate about what more do you want right oh yeah when you go to work with great people doing something that gives you or really aligns with your values and your purpose it just makes every day a bit better so no regrets life is good but it is also hard and I think it's worth us probably delving into that a tiny bit at some point I know not just us but every one of my networks being virgin on burnout over the last 18 months I think like everyone I don't know anyone who's gone I'm great I'm Skippy I'm happy the whole way through I don't that's not a reality at the moment yeah I mean I am burnt out so this is absolutely perfect timing like I'm fully printed so this is great I say yes I'm literally kicking off the podcast again but it is what it is um but I think like let's just dive in okay like let's just go through so you the last time we talked we were at cloudflare you just been bought out by this big giant Corp in your startup tell me how that all wrapped up where do we go next what was yeah got July 2021 take us back that was a while ago and I think um what a great journey in terms of startup and being acquired by a big company there was so much learning that happened there and it's it's a really great success story for a startup but while I was there there was a lot of different moving parts so one of the things is working at a company that's International with distributed teams and just about no team in your country means you're a bit lonely um and disconnected and I don't know anyone that does asynchronous communication very well across time zones it was I did feel a bit alone to be fair and during that time I was catching up with a lot of ex students and mentees and I'm deeply passionate about diverse people in technology right underrepresented people don't come into the industry at the rates that are required and they leave at twice the rate so that's a passion piece for me so during my time at cloudflare where I was feeling disconnected and a bit lonely and a bit lost I was catching up with ex students who were saying Tech's great but I've had enough and I'm leaving the industry to which I was going what do you mean I've worked so hard for you to be here stay you owe me um but no doubting a bit deeper and there's really basic reasons about why people leave and it's around unequal pay lack of career progression and perceived incompetence at the main triggers and honestly that just rubbish there's no reason for it right like it's easy it's an easy solve um I say easy not at all easy very complex but if you choose to make a difference in that space you can so that's what I did I caught up with some other people in the industry that I know and we started a company called Tech diversity lab and we've built a product out called collider and really it's um it's so simple I almost feel embarrassed saying it's a it's a career growth framework that's delivered through a SAS you know as a SAS product and the Simplicity within it is that if you've got a framework that's carefully built and considered and rewards behaviors Technical and non-technical then actually underrepresented people are promoted at the same rate of your typical Tech Pro and you build High performing teams it's not it's not rocket science Bobby it is a reality of like small basic basic things work and there's a reason that they succeed like these are the things people are just not doing because they're so basic and are needed at a very high rate so needed and I think a career growth framework and I'm talking about particularly within technology roles so software engineering roles for example they are very nuanced and they need to be really specific about what role what sorry what skills are looked for and at what level they mean what and if you don't know that as an organization it feels risky to me really how do you actually know what's going on with your people you don't know who's in your team you don't know what skills you've got you don't know what you should be looking for to hire you don't know what you should be training and probably your people are feeling a bit disengaged a lot of organizations have built these out really well and really considered and they've brought in consultants and and made great pieces of work but then that implementing them through spreadsheets which no one loves spreadsheets and so they're not utilized in the way they should and what we've seen and really enjoy with what we've built is that it's good not just for underrepresented people but everyone in the team because unless you were in the in-group in a lot of organizations you didn't know the rules of engagement you didn't know how to get a promotion you didn't know what skills meant you would move up or what skills you were lacking in or where you could grow so it's I kind of see it as a win-win and one of the most obviously simple things I've done in my life

AM: I mean I got a preview of those literally an hour ago and it is looking fabulous like it looks so pretty now like oh the colors are pretty opt and everything and everything makes sense and the UI looks fabulous and smooth oh I'm very excited to see where it's all going but how has that like process of the startup itself actually been for you like I know I mean and for context where I don't know if you mentioned this already like it's three female founders like talk to me

GS: we had our birthday yesterday actually did you yeah it's been a year Kalieda is one which is yes we celebrated happy birthday thank you it's been a journey and I think um the typical roller coaster of a startup everyone says you're going to have moments where you think you're saving the world and you are you are everything you need to be and then half an hour later you're in the corner sobbing because nothing is working and you're drowning under everything and you're also going to have moments where you build a product and you take it out to people and you are just a bit embarrassed because it's really ugly which is why I can't just feedback now about our baby being pretty absolutely we've finally got to that point but it's been um yeah three female technical Founders we've had some highs and some lows with the product build actually was the simplest part of this because we could do it in-house and I've never seen pull requests go so smoothly to be honest it's the cohesion and uh respect for one another as Next Level it's the product build has been the simplest part of this sales are really hard um really really hard and super hard in the Market at the moment but that is what it is so we've hired a sales coach she's a bit of a legend as well she's helping us a lot in the space um where we've had a bit of a I don't know it's a bit ironic I guess we're working really hard to stop the tech bro Vibe existing in technology and part of what we're doing is looking at VC funding and startup funding so we've kind of gone from the space of toxicity going we can fix this and turned around and jumped into a pool of something even stickier and more toxic those starts that just came out for this year are so bad for vce funning I think it's in Australia 0.4 percent of VC funding goes to an all-woman startup

GW: It’s gotten even lower than the year before hasn't it?

AM: like those were the big ones I saw was like it's gotten even less rather than even coming of one percent more it's gotten less like 0.4 I don't know I mean where else is there left to go but

GS: it's an interesting piece because um you know my background's more in maths and web development or software development and and a lot of time is spent with Statistics so I look at that and go rationally why would I even talk to these people or spend time here but actually by the same token to build a company at the speed and the scale we want to to be successful we need to be talking to these people so we'll see where we land with that in saying that um the Victorian startup space is a really great space to be there are so many supportive encouraging groups around there and just genuinely good people in the space that it's fun and it's exciting and I don't think I could be anywhere else um funding wise we're actually we've reached out to a few people we're doing a pre-seed raise a bit of an Angel round and what I've learned is America is the way to go we've we've talked to a lot of people here but literally reached out to a few people in America whose response has been loved the problem you're solving love the team you've got I'm in that's it that's all I took it's really exciting I love that about 33 percent of the way throughout our raise round

AM: oh my God I love this very exciting it's really exciting! Gwenny yes looking towards you but when you talked to me you were in your first role as a software developer sorry Cloud engineer even um over at kasna and again like I know so much has changed in the time that it we've last talked and I'm very very proud of everything you've actually achieved and I'm so happy like staying on the sidelines clapping along but talk to us tell us everything that's happened

GW: I write a little bulletin list when you just had said before we'll talk from July 21 and because I was just like what has happened and the first one's kind of depressing but I'll share it or like is it depressing is it empowering um so I went I kind of went backwards or maybe I'll go backwards so now what is it March 2023 um so I've been in my new role which is principal engineer slash devops coach for about like nine ten months I think within that time have had arrays as well which was cool that I didn't ask for so that's also something oh I like that I really like it yeah I think it's it's one of the things I encourage women and underrepresented groups to look for that kind of culture where it's you know pay people you want to stay what they're worth before they're thinking about leaving kind of vibe that's always been really important to me early in my career in Tech I decided I didn't want to be negotiating for my worth and so I've kind of had that experience since which has been really um that's how I think it should be sorry yeah and I was in in December last year um I was a Google developer expert for that year and then that they asked me again to do that for a year so it's a year and you get like potentially they evaluate what you've done and then may or may not ask you to continue um a you know that probably it's probably similar with Microsoft A? Akanksha is a very talented Microsoft MVP for those who don't know.

AM: Yeah just put in my own submissions again yesterday and I'm like it's a process to get back into those things but yeah

GW: well yeah I had to um track all of the speaking engagements and coaching and stuff I'd done and I'm very we're lucky to have for Google that's a guy that reaches out with a lot of kind of high school and uni engagements which and I love working at that level and I think it's also really important in terms of them seeing a woman in that in that role and in that area given that devops tends to have even less representation than software so yeah that was cool and it was kind of cool looking back I'd done talks in like so many different places like Tunisia sorry not in because it was still locked down so these were all virtual but juniorcr Florida I think Florida Keys or something I don't know if that's Florida um Thunder Bay in Canada all these places I was looking at like where are they Malaysia my kind of first really technical talk was when I first became a GD in December 21 and then in November last year that same group asked if I would actually fly over because Google had opened up funding to like pay for speakers to travel within a pack and yeah so I'd flown over to Malaysia and I was like oh I'm like a global speaker so that was cool I did some you also has to cover personal as well so I also have in my notes I did my first trip to New Zealand and I went through yes gretch's Homeland but also the company I work for is Homeland and so it was really nice to visit Wellington and I went to a cloud conference there that was really cool and I did uh like the Latin dancing so I'd started Latin dancing last year as well and so that was my first social dancing like overseas which was really cool uh in September I did a bali dance trip I don't know if you remember like I remember the videos it looked so good I was like oh this person I know who does dancing globally now everyone can do it highly encourage if anyone wants to kind of have a way to move their body and it's like quite structured so it's really I just like it's not on the social dance floor but in your lessons it is so I do Bachata and soul surf anyone that's out there that does it and wants to invite me to a social dance sometime and then um yeah change jobs in April 2022 so that was the principal engineer devops role before that was a cloud engineer with a Google like consultancy but the thing I started with was actually in November of 21 I started doing like therapy for like cptsd and like codependency I've like forgotten and I'm like not that I'm I don't know I feel like so much more level all of the time now learning to regulate my nervous system learning what like what trauma responses were what triggers were things like that uh yeah so I just thought I'd mention that just for anyone I feel like I do those lists of things that were that are highlights but it's like the reality was also I was like I had like I dated I had a really really hard time in relationships because that's where my cptsd is and then like yeah it's a it's kind of a this is why your writing is going to have to come in it's kind of like a head [ __ ] to get out of that kind of thing and so yeah I've been like learning also what lots of courses on like what healthy relationships are and what that looks like so yeah I've had like a combination of professional and romantic learnings

AM: I love this I love the full scale that we're covering but like I am so thankful that you went through that therapy because that therapy has helped me really yes oh my God every time like the amount of times so for context for most people listen I feel like I don't think I've ever really called people in tears by the two of you you've both dealt with a lot of tearful calls in the last like year or two in the context of lockdown there's just so much going on and I was like every time I would you were like no this is what's happening this is mentally what's happening this is the nervous system stuff really makes such a difference and for anyone that's this and like even if things were a little bit weird my goal get therapy is life-changingly great like as in granny was my therapist before I actually got a therapist so that was really helpful

GS: I think we should totally normalize it oh 100 I talk about it all the time yeah and I'm like oh it's so important like just go get a therapist but yeah oh it's hilarious

GW: oh forgot the one got my motorcycle learners I forgot you've done that like I swear I forget every time you talk like talk about this yeah well it wasn't that long ago it was January mid-January so that's have been learning to motorcycle ride too not super successfully because I fell at the top of the hill last week and I'm not allowed to ride it until they check it out but the pro of that sorry is that I was able to lift it off the ground because apparently a lot of women can't lift I mean there's like motorcycle groups and it's 192 Kilo bike you're not you're not like lifting that because it's like a lever but I was like oh [ __ ] what am I gonna do because I was kind of lifting it and it was like falling back down the hill but anyway I finally managed it and it's that's good to know oh I mean it's like all the little achievements anything because I didn't expect that there are some great photos of you with your leathers and the bike though this is not leather oh they thought I was a weirdo because I required vegan products I think that shop thinks I'm an absolute weirdo I was like I don't want leather I want like something vegan he was like yeah okay yeah there's like microfiber stuff but it's like not as good as the leather stuff apparently but I'm like I don't want to wear like an animal skin on me look so yeah oh funny

GS: I feel like the three of us could just go off topic in any direction for a really long period of time

AM: which I mean yeah I was kind of looking forward to it Michael I was saying this when we sat down they're like so what's the plan I'm like um I don't have one it should be like emotional roller coasters uncovered like usually there's like a timeline that we go through but like because it's like a different episode that I'm just like no we talk about whatever comes up and it's that that's what's gonna happen I've just decided this is it well but you know where we're at now

GS: can I ask a question yes ma'am where do you two want to be by the end of 2023

GW: riding my motorcycle without falling like able to do Hill starts no seriously that's a goal yep traveling internationally and speaking and dancing and more financial it more closer to financially free because at the moment I'm more on the like debt side people are always asking me like oh well is it time for you to buy property I'm like yeah maybe you want to learn how to manage my money like in in like years but you know miracles happen and we can change our lives we co-create our realities so yeah I love it oh yeah you're really conscious yeah consciously even just saying what you kind of want to see happen like it makes such a difference like you think about it all the time and yeah your brain you start working towards it yeah or you at least are open to that possibility which I don't think I was until kind of recently to be honest I don't think I saw that for myself but now I'm like no I can create that like why not for you well I'm thinking I

GS: I threw that question out there with no answer for myself and as you're talking I'm seeing as kanban Board of like personal life Financial life spiritual life like I feel like you've planned this game my my game plan oh by the end of the year I would love collider to have self-sustaining revenue and probably about 10 employees I think would sit us at a nice spot for the growth path we're on um I want my kids to be I would like one of them to move out of home and so she'll be 23 by then so I think that's a fairer I want my kids to be content and enjoying the things they're doing um I would like to be dating in a conscious way so I need to put some thought into what that might look and feel like and I think I'd like to do a bit more martial arts again I've dropped it off and covert changed it and then it never has quite got back to the Cadence I liked so I need to do that more I like that yeah all those sound really good

AM: I mean seeing as I'm a 26 move out of home yeah I hear it okay give me a break I'm on a career break I'm allowed to be at home right now

GW: I'm gonna say given today's climate stay at home yeah like it's it's a cost of living crisis you know what I'm quite

GS: it's a funny thing because in New Zealand you leave home at 18 it is very much same here usually right I don't know anyway yeah which is where I think it's been a weird interesting intersect of like I did it like I did I mean I lived in college on my own which was like the whole night on the other side of the world from a family and stuff and then I got back and I was like oh it's kind of nice being at home now but it's so weird and then

locked up because the timing is kind of okay I feel like it's okay it's a funny piece though in that I've very consciously um the parented to have independent beings by 18 that could go and be useful in society and self-sustaining and it's just really surprising just to have them there but also really lovely in it and you do have to change expectations which I haven't done particularly well that's just on me I'm still doing too much of the cooking and the cleaning Fair what are your goals a cancer oh what are my goals um actually let me take a step back I'm like what did I do over the last time oh yeah God here since I've been not doing the podcast a lot changed I think for me when I got covered I was like oh I realized I all went back to covert for me um March last year so yeah literally exactly a year ago um because I got covered and then the brain fog and the fatigue lasted for me for like three to four weeks if not longer I can't even remember timelines now but are you gonna say months I mean when probably was like I think it just all kind of pushed through because I was so tired I couldn't go to the gym and then that always is a spiral for me where routines start breaking down and we were trying to as well still in a lockdown but not really everything was weird last year I think um and you weren't sorry just to interrupt because we went back to July 21 and I think it's only fair that you all through pull your heart out um you you went through a lot even before before March like yeah July 21 to March yeah I mean oh that was like a real company weird stuff locked down like I left a role fairly soon into stepping into it because it wasn't a good fit and then it was like okay well I gotta find another role that is a good fit and then I think I've now since left at roll two which I mean it was I was so conscious of making sure I ticked all my boxes of like no I've done my research I'm not going to fall into the same trap of like no I was Hoodwinked and now I got in and it's not what I thought it would be and now I'm like regretting every decision but it was great like I mean it went really well for the first six odd months I think and then everything else in my life started going up a bit downhill which was the covert stuff and then it was like that spiraled into I think it's at that time I think I called it seasonal depression but I think it's just depression to be honest I was just not great I think there's a piece around our lockdowns was so significant and is almost like a collective trauma that yeah everyone around us was feeling that plays back to you no one talks about it in Melbourne and we're all very broken I think yeah I think not everyone though like again we've had this conversation yeah but like for me their lockdowns were amazing not like having the privilege of saying that yeah but I saw people like you and my best friend just like them toll on your mental health it was like visible it was I mean 2021 I think it really hit but also it was like a sustained level at that stage after 2020 that like I didn't even notices it's just like I mean it is what it is and I didn't think twice about it because I was busy doing all the other things and it was distracting and then I think it got to like winter last year which again for people not in Australia like March and May June months of the year which is somewhere everywhere else but um it got there and it got really bad I didn't get it like I'm saying like I didn't get out of bed couldn't get out of beds couldn't get myself to do anything and it just took so long and I remember at one stage oh this is like a very like a little blip of happiness I still remember this it's like Dad I think I've been saying it we were going to go get pizza or something the night before he's like oh come with me let's just go pick up pizza together like I don't want to go anywhere we were talking and I'm like I think he's kind of piling out of bed I'm not gonna lie he was like have you done this have you done this have you done this like all I'm like you don't understand how much I cannot hear this right now like don't talk to me about that stuff like I can he's like just go to the gym and I'm like if I could I would like as in you say this so flippantly but like the next morning he's like look I don't care what you do just go in the morning sit there for 10 minutes and come back I don't care just go like get like you have to just get there and the man doesn't go to the gym in the mornings like he can't like he went once and he kind of like didn't do well in the morning because he didn't eat anything before and he's like it's kind of become a thing in his head where he's like he doesn't go off since um but that morning he was like he came into my room he's like seven o'clock and after my door was like let's go like we're gonna go to the gym like and he came with me I mean that was really sweet and Granny's face before 9am that's offensive I prefer gym in the morning I think it's easy to get out of the way rather than lying in bed for me I think um so he did I think he came with me like he did a run with me and like oh I made such a such a difference of like kind of having someone else to go to didn't come again don't get me wrong it was a little bit of a highlight um but yeah I think all of this was happening at the same time and then work became different with like feedback and like feedback

feedback so I started going on that spiral of like I don't know what I'm doing is it ever good enough therefore I must do more because I don't want to say anything great framework I do I did need it and I think we talked about it then I was like this we really need some feedback format or framework something we didn't have it and then I kept doing the I don't think I'm doing enough because no one's telling me I'm doing enough or not doing enough and there was no context of where I was at to constantly felt like I was never doing anything enough and I was working ridiculously over time like at that stage I think I was doing way more hours and stuff ing doing everything else like this podcast like I was just like I don't have time because I have to go do more work that I'm not succeeding at in my hairs whether or not I was but I didn't know if I was because no one said anything it was a really bad spiral um but I think it kind of all came to her head by the time it got to September and I was like the depression they absolutely like burnout I'd walked myself into walked ran myself into maybe being somewhat corralled into it as well yeah I I actually don't remember that exactly the same I remember you talking about it and it sounded like you were trying to have those conversations about feedback you were asking explicitly for feedback multiple times and getting answers I mean the answers were like oh you're doing grand like or I remember was it a person at one stage was like oh I've heard your name come up so many times you're doing great and I'm like but but that that doesn't do anything like okay great my name's been mentioned amazing like that doesn't help me in any way or format yeah I mean there was parts of it that were great but then there was other parts like that which just made everything else so much harder than it probably could have been and I think yeah it was a new role that was kind of built and I mean everything looked great and everything was building up perfectly and that could have gone another way oh it could have gone so much differently like everything that went through and I was like oh well so come September I was just like okay well I mean I can't I can't keep going like this and I quit oh I still remember the earthquake it was gorgeous when we went for tacos after Taco's making everything a business my friends had just moved over from Ireland and I was like it it's time for a tacos here is an unlimited taco place let's go um but yeah I quit my job um I had a family wedding to go to in December and I was like well if I'm going in December I might as well go a bit earlier so I ended up spending like six weeks in India and it was great um the first time I was like that was great like sorry India's never a holiday to me I feel like I've said this before to other people but like India's like a job like going to India is like an actual like here's a calendar these are the people you need to meet these are the like emotions you need to hit like these are the conversations you need to have um but I was absolutely fantastic um actually being at home getting to see my grandparents for the first time in like four or five years now oh like getting their life stories we just all the details of like back in the 60s my granddad was in a war like I knew it was in the Army techniques he was in the war I'm like oh that happened in India okay great cool um should have known more okay like he's won awards and stuff like from like the president and I'm like huh and he brought it out to us and I was like what the hell why did we not know why'd we not talk about this um so this is me talking about it to like the rest of the world basically but no I came back and then I was like oh I'll take a break for another little bit and then I was like oh my God it's the first time I've not been stressed in years and I was like oh this is amazing so I do nothing now I want a career break and I am fun employed at the moment and it is brilliant but kind of coming back to your question which was a very long-term run to get to that question um I have been a big believer of like the conscious planning and stuff right like the way granny like I did that all the time I would put out um the whole manifestation stuff I'd say random stuff I'm like I'm gonna be an MVP by next year and I'm like I'd say you're flippantly but it would start happening because I started doing things about it um but I made a conscious decision decision word this year to not do that I'm like I have no expectations of 2023. whatever comes up great nothing comes up even better at this stage I think but I'm not limiting it down to anything therefore blocking anything out is my vibe for the year I think I love this one of our willy willy comes through I'm like this is this is what I'm doing I'm a huge proponent and if you go back to the very first podcast we did together of walking through open doors yes sometimes I think if you well actually this generalizing I know for me if I have something really strongly planned I've missed other opportunities before yes open doors see what's around I mean I was on the phone to my cousin London and we came up with all these like wild plants and I was like yes I'll come to London we'll do all this stuff and I'm like well I can do that like maybe I will see you next time I was like oh he was kind of just talking but I'm like well look I've got two very loving cousins in London with two houses and two spare bedrooms so I will pay rent but I will cook for you guys

like yep here for more kind of just cohabiting with other people at the moment of course um career breaking therefore no employment requires that at the moment when when was this fall in London I don't know it might happen this time next month it might happen never she's off next week I like it I mean part of me was like maybe I will just come tomorrow and then I'm like wait no I think I've got things to wrap up here before he just randomly get on the flight I still put you randomly getting on a flight I'm I mean there's plans I mean there's friends of mine who actually Julia who's been on the podcast people should go and listen to her episode because she did this really really random cool trip through Japan like she cycle through Japan she's doing again oh wow so I'm like well you were there for three months I'm gonna turn up at some stage and be there too that worked out pretty well so I think a lot of my year is very much what's happening around me and just kind of jumping on the bandwagon a bit but say yes to the good stuff legit and I'm like oh okay it'll be what it'll be it's fine it'll be your best year if it isn't I'm at a level of like I don't even care but this isn't our plan again and like next year we'll figure out things to do and it's fine I'm like I remember my mom was like I mean it's like what are we doing and I'm like nothing and she's like but yikes like I'm I've kind of gone to a stage like not that I will like I'm happy to like if I have to start from scratch next year I'm quite okay with that fact I think I've realized that now I'm gonna scratch me because you weren't actually in my mind you'll never have to do that agreed and I wouldn't but I think that's like mum's kind of worst case scenario in her brain right she's like whatever it's like nothing what if you go through all your savings and all that I'm like I've got you man I said that to my dad I'm a Granddad my granddad was like he can't it's not working now and I'm like well you believe in the patriarchy I've got a dad that works it's fine I see what you did there it was a really enjoyable moment I don't think he enjoyed it as much as I did but but right okay so I think let's do a rapid fire round this is something I'm bringing in for season two it sounds really fun I mean I'm really excited because I think I'm excited to see because it'll be kind of the set questions I want to post to most people and these are just general life stuff please don't be because I haven't shown them the questions yet and I think Gretch is quite scared about this is like not ready for this first quick round how are you feeling about this anxious I feel it in my body I should go to therapy it's a sign that your nervous system is dysregulated yes this is what I mean these were my perfect therapist right here

um but no and then came everyone's gonna have a really weirdly different perspective on this is my hope and thinking um and these challenge accepted exactly and I mean these were something I picked up on a different podcast so like someone did something similar to this I'm like oh my God I love hearing different responses to this and it really like hits me right so is can I just check first is it like a one word answer no so yeah as long as short as you want to answer if you want to pass and you don't want to answer it I will not be offended um I'm sure there's a reason for it

I like the fact here um but yeah as long as short as you want going in as depth as you'd like and so first question what feels like the biggest secret to success for you in Tech oh I've got this one go swear word hang on and now I've got to think about not swearing the biggest secret to success in Tech is mess up fast and early I think we know where the other version of that is and then go from there the the biggest mess up you can do can be fixed once you kind of make some peace with mistakes life is so much easier and always ask for help to get back out of those disasters you've put yourself in I mean it makes sense coming from the person who's done multiple startups at this stage I'm great at falling over and getting back up I mean I like us granny for me it's a combination of being willing like I have this question I ask myself and I kind of talk to people I meant here as well about this when I stepped into this role on paper I I'm like am I even appropriate for this role you know what I mean um so I but I instead thought I don't want to carry that energy with me I'm going to ask myself instead what if I'm exactly what they need what if I'm the right person in the room just by being who I am and that's also something that helped get me through boot camp actually when I felt stupid every day and cried every day like I just thought I think because I'm so different and I don't understand it easily that will make me someone that will make the industry better you know yep so I kept kind of telling myself that and the kind of flip side of that is that is having the environment of people that do give you that safe environment to grow so that support the kind of uh it's like kind of permission but also space and Trust to do to find your own path like to do things in your own way yeah so that they're the two kind of biggest things for me for sure how about for you I think that believing yourself right like it was well I went through the exact same thing because I mean again it was a very similar thing to you where I was like real stuff up in terms of it like I was like managing consultant like head of AI at this place I was like oh my dear Lord and I remember for the first when I start November so it was like first one two three at least three months I would genuinely go into a near panic attack anytime someone asked me about my background or my age it freaked me out so much because I fully was like I'm too young to do this and my experience is invalidated in terms of like how much I have I have not done enough to be in this role and in freak and then like I don't know where the switch came but it was like oh no I remember it was like a random Clan card that I was pulled into literally like a minute notice which not great but it's like hey if you just need you to be in the room kind of a thing and I joined it and like the first time I didn't have sweats in a client meeting like every client meeting would kind of freak me out enough to be like no I'm nervous about what I'm gonna I'm just like I'm here I know what I'm talking about like let's get on with it and I was like wait no I do belong in this role I know what I'm doing doesn't make sense I know exactly what's happening um and I'm like kind of coming back to him I'm like no when I know what I do I know what I'm good at and I can capitalize on that enough to be like I know you want me there you need me there this makes sense I believe I think they were great answers because we all belong here in Tech exactly like it doesn't matter who you are and where you come from your background is making a goddamn difference to you being here oh my gosh look at you crash wrapping it off for me oh whatever if you sang We Belong

um okay next question best and worst decision you've made in your career I'm not fussing

best is definitely career changing into Tech um something I like would never have thought in a million years I would have done coming from a completely non-technical background

um encourage all others to do the same worst decision

probably having it was the job I was in before I was before I started boot camp and it was I had left the industry I was at kind of the peak of my career in the education International like education industry and curriculum development space I'd left that because it conflicted with my values and the in terms of the depression burnout I was kind of like having that experience as well I thought no no um company or industry is worth like my mental health or me compromising my values and it's really exploitative that international student industry I think we spoke about that in our interview so that was the first time I left a really high paying on paper amazing job my family thought I was crazy and I left Sydney great decision and came back to Melbourne no no offense to Sydney beautiful but not for me like the sun the hills it's like Brisbane no it's like beautiful but not like it's like I like the color of the dark you know just caves but yeah so I lost my train of thought whenever I think about City I get so stressed I like lose what I'm thinking about oh god oh yeah so I'd left the whole industry and I had this very clear moment where I was like I'm never gonna again work in put myself in a position where I'm in a company or an industry that doesn't value me and that goes against my values but I went into a role that was in a sexist um like really authoritative company like I also I think talked about this in the interview they had like 130 cameras and they were family owned and they sort of watched the staff and they would replay videos of like staff doing something they didn't like they had really hard turnover obviously someone had sent in an email chain some sexist joke and I'd been like um this isn't okay are you going to talk to them about it and I got called in and got in trouble and then I got fired um while on probation so yeah I think for me it was putting myself in that position because it was crushing it was although now facing a round of layoffs at the work I'm out I have a lot of compassion for the people who that's the first time losing a job because I've lost that job and I've lost job two jobs in covert sorry I feel like we're in a capitalist Society like that's a that's a company's responsibility is to make money and to do that at any point I feel like I'm seeing at the moment in my workplace a lot of people who haven't had that experience and I just I know it felt so bad the first time I was so ashamed like I remember just I just didn't even I'm like how am I going to tell my parents I remember having to borrow rent off them it was just like it was crushing and then that's how I started Tech yeah at that point but yeah so for me it's putting myself in an environment where like what I was saying before is the most important thing putting yourself in an environment where you don't have that environment is for me like the biggest mistake and I won't do it again how do you sense check for that I think it's a lot of things for me I usually have followed a company for a while first I know that they've got like diversity initiatives representation at different levels I know that they like I know probably multiple people that work there yeah and that they're actually like I've heard stories so this is like with mantle group for example when I started working there and I knew um multiple people that had had different experiences there that were really positive and they did a lot of initiatives that went line with my personal values like hiring um gender diverse trainees and training them up giving them a pathway into the industry our other really good initiatives as well so yeah for me it's like a whole lot of I guess data points you could call them to check and it's it's still something I guess you kind of I don't know if any companies I mean I was I was not enough to be like I did all my checks I checked and it was still bad I mean I checked and then you go in you're like oh these were checks I couldn't have even done and now I see it in front of me and I'm like well okay that's and I think that was a big thing where I was like no okay it's okay to leave like that was my first I was like no I felt so bad I was like oh my god I've just started and like is it freeing is that there I was like no it's fine like this isn't a good fit for me therefore it's not actually good for them like if I'm not in a good place to be here like it's fine oh imagine normalizing that probation period as both ways but yeah both ways this is not good for me it's not good for you let's normalize being somewhere for two and a half months and making a really good call yeah we had a guy do that so when I just after I started where I am he was similar role to meet principal engineer devops coach and he wasn't sure if it would be like on the tools enough yeah and uh yeah it ended up not feeling right for him and he had that conversation with my manager who was super supportive and um he's gone back to his old company actually they kind of promoted him and brought him back but they had yeah just the conversation from the start was like our manager saying he's not sure yet if this works for him so we'll just see how it goes and he made that kind of uh opening from the start yeah yeah and it was it's it's another thing it's like good to see that happen in real life so I've heard stories like that in interviews from people at good places as well like I remember one was this woman who'd gone through actually a really bad divorce I I'd said how has the company shown that they've um they support you as a person for your personal and professional growth and this was uh just just prior to Kobe when I started there and they were incidentally a company that didn't let go of any staff in covid which I think is another test we can look at now like did they get rid of people like to me that's a red flag and she said I had a really bad divorce and they were extremely supportive all the way through they told me to focus on like myself my family feeling okay and whatever like that looked like for me was okay with them and I was like that's a really good sign yeah and they kind of yeah there were other things like that like I've got no good answers so is this best and worst yeah yeah decision right decisions yeah yeah in life career life whichever one oh I did career that's all right well maybe I'll go that's different um good life I think um the best decision I've made in the last few years was getting divorced they're getting to us the first decision was starting [Laughter] sorry laughing at this I think there's a piece around um if you're putting blame and fault aside there's a piece when relationships can actually just stop serving you well and it was at that point so divorce has provided freedom and just in terms of emotional labor Freedom so that's one of the best decisions I've made and in terms of bad Life Choices I don't know which one to start

[Music] one of the things I've done and we talked about it the first time we chatted acantor was around I was a teenage mother which personally I don't I was 19 when my daughter was born I don't think that's I don't think it was a bad choice I made I think Society let me know very clearly that they thought it was a very poor choice I'd made yeah um which is not the same thing at all so I think I'm saying I've got no regrets and I've made some good choices yeah unz are great oh exactly like I'm very glad that was a thing you know like I was going to say that like I don't think there's necessarily a bad decision for me I was talking about this recently I'm like I'm glad everything has happened the way it has like don't get me wrong I'm like yes life would have been easier if I didn't do that stupid thing in my life and I was like wouldn't have had to suffer for like months because of it that would have been great but having done that in hindsight I'm glad I did that stupidity so I would never do it again like I mean I think the best decision for me was leaving Ireland um actually taking the job that works for me I mean that was my career transition into Tech In fairness but it's also just I think I've talked about this and like I think Ireland is a very small play everyone knows everyone and stuff and there's always we tried Melbourne hilariously Ireland's even smaller like as a country than the Melbourne City which is bizarre but like I think it did lead I don't mean I'm not saying every other Irish person would agree but it always felt like you were constantly being watched for what you're doing or everything would be judged and moving here kind of having that Fresh Start of like literally nobody knowing me and therefore no one can judge me did you make up a whole new persona then 100 sense like I said things I wouldn't necessarily say or do and I'm like I just I'm like I don't care anymore like judge away like my friends who've now moved over from Ireland and stuff I'm like I don't know this was your cat guys I don't know what you remember of me this is what it is now sorry but 100 of the best and I think worse I mean that stands out to me is like not standing up for myself in a lot of scenarios in the last couple of months I think where I'm like I wish I had just said my piece rather than like not trying to burn Bridges and things like that because I kind of have let people walk over me a little bit I mean this is when it was like the worst of the worst mental health part of it don't get me wrong but I'm like so you're holding yourself to standards that were yeah a little it's more like I regret familiar to you yeah

you'll see I mean yes but like I don't regret it because I'm like I've done that now and I don't think I'll let myself do that again but yeah it stands out a bit I'm like Ugh and my sister said that to me a lot she's like can you just like stand up for yourself for once I gotta I'm trying oh my God give me a break

she did a lot In fairness this was just like the last straw and I appreciate her saying good I think but yes a little bit mean siblings do a lot of levels they cut right in they cut through it all you're like okay that was a little bit damning um okay I think what have you valued less over time money um I think job titles

I'm doing what I like doing who cares what it's called um this might be a weird one but experience oh yes like I've I value it and it has value for sure but I've also met so many people now that are in like coming in to technology and what I've valued you know as being technical but then meeting people who were technical but had no aspirations to kind of go beyond a very limited skill set yeah which is okay no judgment but it um yeah I don't know I was just like okay so you can be experienced in years but not be experienced in terms of breads yeah yeah or what you've what you've learned or if you've got two tablets like too deep into one thing like you lose out a lot of other collaborative skills and things like that like you start losing a lot of extra stuff I can understand that desire though in such a fast-paced changing environment to go I know this one thing I know it really well and I've got a sense of Mastery and I'm tired yeah which I mean Fair it's totally I think it really suits some people I mean I was saying this was like literally the other day my friends like you are the most like the busiest unemployed person I've ever met yeah and I'm like I took me a minute to be like well I did all the same stuff while I had a full-time job in the past yeah I'm tired what no wonder I was burnt out like I make sense now and I was like do you know what like people don't have to do all this stuff and I think we need to normalize that a bit too like I wonder if we need a session on Boundary setting yes I know I do wow this really is a side therapy session but I mean I didn't expect anything less I think um biggest current career in security I feel like this one bit too cutting too close to home we are a bootstrap startup I did just say that money is the easiest on my value system but also money is a big concern yeah for a startup cash flow Fair calling all angels

um for mine uh it's a It's Tricky it's a little bit still the technical thing for me I think being in a being in an engineering level where like I work with a bunch of different teams sometimes they'll escalate things to me and they're a lot more deep in the technical detail and I can't help you know or like I try to help but it's like probably what they've done and looked it up anyway so that that always is kind of it's kind of the flip side to me saying I've I've learned to Value experience less but at the same time good experience or like meaningful experience is is like Priceless you know yeah and I don't have it in a lot of areas that I would like to I still think you can make a difference like a positive difference but that's definitely like like that's the kind of thing that would uh you just stopped me in my tracks if someone said something to me about it you know yeah I'd just be horrified yeah yeah I think Capital are you technical enough oh no it hurts every time like and this is I mean the career break yeah great I was needed and oh my God my life has changed so much because of no stress in it like the amount of stuff that is life-changingly just been cleared away in my life but good oh it's amazing I can't see it in you too I am a different person yeah like it's bizarre uh even just like two months has made such a difference but um I think having that career break the whole fear of especially within the current like landscape of like will I have a job to go back to which will actually afford me to be able to live I don't know I mean I'm your hot property I mean yeah but I think that coupled up with everything that's happened in the last month with AI chat gbt is going to change the world I've said this like 18 times in the last two days I'm not gonna lie but it's just changing at such a rapid Pace that it is a weird level of like I don't know where to fit into all of it anymore and I don't know what my job that freaks me out no no we just I went away to southstar which was this fabulous event held in Adelaide that combines um or it connects VC funds and startups did you have fun in Adelaide I had a great time in Adelaide thanks team but also decided I had a new job title I was going to be a promptologist or a prompt pathologist and just write prompts for AI because that's a skill set but it is though I mean if you think about the whole like a good software engineer is someone that can Google well like that's a thing right I'm like this is going to become the new thing like can you chat GPT well therefore do a really good job of whatever you're doing like promptology is it I like that maybe that is one of my next problem is discussion

um okay two more questions um what do you not feel guilty about anymore why wait oh I love that oh I wish I'm working on that one like actively I'm doing this just shout out embodied eating course with Amanda Hoon who is the most amazing diet non-diet diet dietitian and all this stuff I like did not even realize is a thing like I keep noticing like we had a meal together it was Indian is one of my favorites and I was just super stressed because I didn't want the vegetable korma I wanted the curry with the potatoes the aloe Bobby or whatever it's called a potato and eggplant but in my mind I was like no I've got to have vegetables I haven't had enough vegetables today and I was like just paralyzed with it she's like you know you can have a meal without vegetables and I I swear my whole body went into a stress response

and she's like so just I've got so many rules in my head about food and like weight that I didn't realize were even there so yeah actively working on it all bodies are beautiful um but yeah I I don't know probably the experience thing again yep like it's a it's just a weird relationship I I guess it's a the reality is on paper or like in if I analyze it objectively I don't have the experience I I like think is cool to have yep um but if I came to you with that what would you say yeah at the same time I've chosen to look at what I can do with what I have with where I'm at and to make a positive difference wherever I am and I think I'm doing that so yeah it's kind of I had to do a lot of emotional work around that and also salary I'm about to do a lot of emotional work to kind of expect a higher salary and expect even more and value myself at that level so yeah though those kind of two things around valuing I guess it's the one thing valuing myself and what I can bring like being just my unique self um yeah how about you taking a break yeah I don't feel guilty about that anymore isolate you oh I used to me like it was kind of always like like what's next what are you doing now like where where what are you doing there's a constant what are you doing and I'm like oh I'm doing nothing I'm okay with saying that now and just being yeah yeah I mean it was interesting though like the conference I was at several days um a couple of weeks ago first in-person conference back spoke at it and again I was like oh forgotten how to do this in front of people now that I've done it in front of computers for so long but um it's fabulous but I think what was interesting was people's responses to when you say when they ask that oh but where are you working right now because they want to validate what you're saying and who you are because they need a title to validate that with it happens all the time and I'm like it never bothered me before because I was had a good answer to us um wow very arrogant but I love that but it was I mean that was the truth like it never made me bother myself with it but the people who had taken a break in their lives before immediately were like great decision you're gonna love it and the people who hadn't and didn't really understand it were immediate like the judge it was a real switch of like oh okay well you're really doing nothing um so that was an interesting time I love that for you because I think um I experienced that a bit you know when you have children and you meet someone and you know and you have a value proposition within yourself and you know you're educated and competent and you can do these things and someone will say hey what do you do what's your name what do you do and you get my name's scratched and I'm at home with two amazing kids and their eyes glaze over and they put you in they're just really uninteresting not useful people category over in a box and it's cutting and your ego gets destroyed but at the same time I'm going to go back to it being freeing because you're not attached to your job title anymore you learn very brutally that it doesn't matter and it's transient and you can just be you and if people judge and move away because of that then so get lost so be it yeah I was thinking hearing you say that you've got an even better answer now because your answer is you've kind of empowered yourself to a level that you are just able to fully support yourself where you're at yeah to do what your body and your like Soul needs you to do to grow to like and to to rest before like whatever you decide wherever you flow next like whether it's work or something like different maybe you create a new way of being you know okay

I think I was laughing um sorry this just brought back to my head when Gretch you said this earlier where you're like oh why are you leaking like I'm working so hard to get you here right and I I remember a conversation right like in sobbing tears I was like I am done with tech I'm leaving I'm never coming back everything was up in flames and you were like I think this is just tears talking they'll come back to this conversation later and I mean we're glad like I mean I value that a lot more about myself now foreign last question I love how rapid fire these really are but like this was the point these were just kind of pointers to get a conversation going I guess but um when did you first feel successful and what does that word mean to you I'm still getting there which is that could be the answer and I'm okay with it to be honest I don't I don't think I'll ever be done if that makes sense yeah I'm happy you're carrying on to some somewhat obtainable something even if that is a promptologist it sounds like a trauma response to me at that point Fair Point no I'm kidding anything specific that success means to you

um Freedom so Financial Freedom emotional freedom Freedom would be success right and there's I'm so aware in all this dialogue we've had that we have all been talking about freedom and spaces we've created for ourselves but that that does come from a place of privileged yeah because we are very privileged extremely and working in Tech has set us up for that even more so yeah just call out to privilege oh 100 I mean I think about it constantly taking a break at 26 years old and being like I'm not gonna do anything for a year I get that yeah it's like was I ever successful alone

oh hilarious um first success like is in going back for ages or lacking specifically Tech I don't mind whichever one I can't like I might the first thought that came to mind was when I was a child and I quit ballet I don't know how old I was that was a solid so I think Bella is so beautiful I could cry every time I see it and now I'm like past Queenie you dick why do you like you doing ballet I might be a little too like I don't know if I'm the body kind of type for it but yeah I love ballet so but in Korea it just uh getting through like getting into technology yeah from the moment I did it it just I was like this is where I want to be for now it's just like such a great industry I feel like it will be at the Forefront of solving all of the world's really complex like socio-technical problems and we just need more women in there and I yeah I feel like I heard women say like that is a possibility for you and then so just doing that was really yeah that felt like a success for me I love that can I skip back to me yeah one of the things um I get the most joy out of is when I hear from someone who I was even just the tiniest bit involved with of having them move into technology particularly underrepresented people when they just have a throwaway comment about oh I'm glad you said that thing to me or I'm really glad you're in the industry because it's made it a better place for me to come and be I think that's the the feel good successes along the way right oh yeah I think I I'm something like I've mentored a few people over the last couple years and people say that like oh can't you like that helps and like what I've actually started doing is going back over my own life and thinking about the people who said the words to me to be like no and you need to hear this because it feels great to hear it from me therefore you also I remember it was one of the managers I had back in got in when I was in third year college at an internship and she was great like she would make her like whenever I have questions like she was the one she'd give me things to do and I'd like okay well I've got a few questions and she'd be like you'll give me five minutes I just need to finish this thing off and then would literally put everything else away I turn around and be like okay I've got time like give me your questions and we will go through it like she made the time Christmas woman can we change English galwin like I will shout about her to the end of the world she just was such a good manager and right before I actually wrapped up on that project and she I can't remember if she was the one who's like here I've got some feedback or I asked for feedback I can't remember which way it went um I have a feeling it was kind of both ways but she said Dan was like I think you're going to do great I think you're going to do such good stuff you are smart you're going to go so far I just want you to know this isn't it and there is so much more and I remember her talking about like and this is such a oh my god wow sorry this is me connecting like absolute Dots here now I'm sorry but remember her she had it was an Irish thing like she came and worked in Australia and blah blah blah and then moved back every Irish does this I think but she was talking about how like she had like signing bonuses that were big enough to buy her parents cars and like well a whole like there's a whole different level of success that exists and she's like you will achieve it like you're gonna do great like it was just so validating and I was like oh my God I can do that kind of stuff and college was a weird time I was like I was very much I went from being a very big fish in a small pond to a very very tiny Vision a very giant Lake um it was a wild time but and I never really felt like that in college where I was like yeah look I was good at what I was doing but also I was like nowhere near anywhere like around the people I was with um but when she said that I was like oh maybe maybe you can like this is amazing but like the things like she really did set me up really really well and I was like a 15 minute conversation from her right like that's all that you like it changed my life and I met I sent her message and being like hey I don't even know if you remember me like it's completely fair if you don't but like just letting you know and she was like oh my God thank you so like and she was like oh this is such a wild like message to see and stuff but I'm like make an effort like if that's one people one thing people take I'm like just hit up that person that like randomly made an impact with like two words on your life go message that person it'll make their day everyone needs that right now do you know do you know tagging from this like a lot of our conversation kept coming back to the piece around we belong here yeah in this industry

hahaha

actually I think that's a pretty good note to pull this together on I'm not gonna lie like this was a great conversation love you bye you're both amazing so we were trying to do like for people on the audio being like what is going on it was hard there's a lot of wires here and I like today but um no and I mean look the whole point behind the podcast was kind of talking not just about like here is the tag and I did one job to another and then I kept going up and up and up and it was great but all the other stuff that happens in life which really has a big impact on everything else that happens um so I'm kind of glad it was a little bit all over the place compared to most other episodes that we've had which are very kind of one thing after the other but I like that like I'm so glad that you came and shared your opinions and made it an easy place for me to share mine too which is very important thank you for creating a safe space for me guys thanks thanks for having us oh you're my first people to go to for bringing back the whole thing again like I'm very excited for a season two um especially with the new questions and stuff coming up and hopefully more in-person stuff like this because it's the laughs have been great comedy well we'll wrap it off there um and we will be back again for the next episode of pattern coverage some stage soon [Music]